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#536558 06/15/21 01:54 PM
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This is the second time on six years that the HSB in our pond have died in the winter. 100% kill rate.

The pond is 3 acres, up to 18 feet deep in Northwestern PA. They are pellet fed twice a day and supplementally fed fatheads twice in the summer.

The first time it happened, I took the blame for not moving the air stones in close to shore and figured that the water was too cold from circulation.

This time the stones were moved in to about 4' deep water.

None of the other fish suffered and the HSB in our shallower ponds (7' to 9') deep survived just fine.

I'd hate to give up on such a great fish.

Thanks for any replies.

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I have found that keeping ponds like I really want them is a losing battle and a money pit. Letting nature take its course now, with a lot less stress on me.

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I have put in over 50 HSB in my small pond over the last 4 years and don't think I have much of anything to show for it. I did harvest 7 of them a couple summers ago, however. I would have swore that I had many of them left then, but no sign of them now. I've switched to ladder stocking CC and trying my luck with BG instead of HBG. I might even go complete mutt pond if the CC don't work out. All, just to keep my love of the hobby elevated and my efforts and my spending lower. Part of me wants it to get grossly overpopulated and stunted so that I can throw a few flathead cats in and grow a monster or two, but maintaining a weak fish population has been challenging.


Fish on!,
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Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
Part of me wants it to get grossly overpopulated and stunted so that I can throw a few flathead cats in and grow a monster or two, but maintaining a weak fish population has been challenging.

You're speaking my language. I might intentionally stock BCP into my half acre pond (That just broke ground today, woo hoo!) and intentionally stunt them just to support some larger cats.

As far as the HSB kill goes, I'm not sure what the reasoning is. Are you thinking its because of an O2 crash? One of the supposed perks of HSB is that they're supposed to be able to withstand a wide array of temperatures and DO levels.


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aguita,
What is different about your 3 acre pond compared to the other ponds besides depth.
Do all ponds have aeration?
Did the 3 acre pond freeze over completely and have snow on top of the ice.
Did the diffuser set at 4 foot depth keep a hole in the pond all winter?
Are all ponds pellet fed? If yes is the same food used for all ponds?
Do you stock HSB at the same time in the ponds? From Bruce Condello “ Don�t buy, handle, or stock HSB when water temperatures are below 50. Your fish will get a nasty green fungus on their fins and may die.”
How old, how big and how many HSB were in the 3 acre pond before the kill as compared to your other ponds?
Hopefully these questions will help you figure out what happened?

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Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
I have put in over 50 HSB in my small pond over the last 4 years and don't think I have much of anything to show for it. I did harvest 7 of them a couple summers ago, however. I would have swore that I had many of them left then, but no sign of them now. I've switched to ladder stocking CC and trying my luck with BG instead of HBG. I might even go complete mutt pond if the CC don't work out. All, just to keep my love of the hobby elevated and my efforts and my spending lower. Part of my wants it to get grossly overpopulated and stunted so that I can throw a few flathead cats in and grow a monster or two, but maintaining a weak fish population has been challenging.

Another possibility might be tiger musky. They don't get as big as flatheads, so won't take out any really large HSB or CC.


8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17,L, 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 25 HSB & 250 F1 9/20,L,180# RBT 12/20, 206, 7k TFS,100#TP 5/21, 225



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Aguita, I think I read at a fisheries web site that HSB have a maximum life expectancy of 7 years. So they recommended a laddering of them. The second event seems consistent with that life expectancy. But it is not clear if the first made it to 6 years in the pond. If you could be satisfied with limited age in the pond (5-6 years max), the HSB showed they could live to that age, then consider a ladder program if you enjoy them.


Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
I have put in over 50 HSB in my small pond over the last 4 years and don't think I have much of anything to show for it. I did harvest 7 of them a couple summers ago, however. I would have swore that I had many of them left then, but no sign of them now. I've switched to ladder stocking CC and trying my luck with BG instead of HBG. I might even go complete mutt pond if the CC don't work out. All, just to keep my love of the hobby elevated and my efforts and my spending lower. Part of my wants it to get grossly overpopulated and stunted so that I can throw a few flathead cats in and grow a monster
or two, but maintaining a weak fish population has been challenging.

I've got some great news for you QA. CC are excellent pond fish. You will enjoy them. They grow well with BG. They taste great too. We fish a stunted BG pond and the CC have averaged .9 lbs growth per year in the first 5 years. Some are over 5 lbs. No feed, so would do better with supplemental feeding. The BG seem to stall at 4.5 to 5". These are optimum for catching 5 lb and larger CC. Kids like catching them and I'm not ashamed to say we keep a few for snacking. I'll fry up a platter of them and the kids won't hardly let us grab one edge wise, LOL. I thoroughly enjoy watching their glee as they are consumed ... Starting tail fins first.

I think your idea of one or two FH might help you grow bigger BG. Your pond size is optimum for this as only one about 5 lbs would be a great help. You would need to harvest by around 15-20 lbs. and then go in with another around 5 lbs. The cycle would be somewhere between 3 to 5 years .... Probably. If you set a limb line from your dock one evening there would probably be a FH (unless a CC) on it in the morning. Back in the day, i liked to set limb lines in a local creek. I would use just enough line that the BG was about 8 inches below the water. An old timer taught me that trick and it didn't hurt if it didn't help. In my twenties I spent as much time with 70+ folks as I did with folks my age. I am glad I did that.

FH are territorial and like cover ... If you set a brush pile ... It'll probably hang there most of the time and the CC will wisely keep their distance.

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/16/21 07:58 AM.

Common sense is not so common - Voltaire

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Thanks for the encouragement JP's!

For the time being, I'll enjoy the CC/BG combo...knowing that there are some HBG still there and the hopes of the possible HSB or two. I do feed once a day and have all these years, but dinnertime always seems to lack in attendance. I put in 15 CC ranging from 1 to 1.3 pounds (~14- 18") this spring with one floater. I can only witness 5 of them feeding at the surface at any one time, but my guess is there are around 10 survivors. Another 15, CC (1 pounders) will go in next year (or 5, 3 pounders - if available). Up to this point, hindsight being the key factor, I do not believe culling has been important at all. So, my current goals are to get a strong feeding population established and worry about monster sizes and culling in the upcoming years. I have grown to enjoy feeding the fish more than actually fishing for them.

I did add about 30 foot total of hedge and cedar limbs (with some folded-up hog wire fencing) to the bank for smaller fish cover this year (two different areas). If and when the time comes for the FH, larger cover can easily be added as hedge is abundant on my land. I will be looking for possible CC recruitment and the gross abundance of BG before coaxing/bribing Augie to take me out to source the FH from the Missouri river.


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Just don't do any C&R of the CC. If you do, please fin clip them and report back if you catch them again.


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What is different about your 3 acre pond compared to the other ponds besides depth. Not much difference that I can note.

Do all ponds have aeration? Only the pond that had the die off has aeration.

Did the 3 acre pond freeze over completely and have snow on top of the ice. The pond always had an open water spot but yes, snow did cover the ice.

Did the diffuser set at 4 foot depth keep a hole in the pond all winter? Yes

Are all ponds pellet fed? If yes is the same food used for all ponds? Two of the three are pellet fed and the same food is used.

Do you stock HSB at the same time in the ponds? From Bruce Condello “ Don�t buy, handle, or stock HSB when water temperatures are below 50. Your fish will get a nasty green fungus on their fins and may die.” The fish had been in for three years each time they died.

How old, how big and how many HSB were in the 3 acre pond before the kill as compared to your other ponds? 50 fish, three years old and most were near 20" as far as i could tell.

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aguita,
A couple more questions to help drill down what happened.
1. Do all 3 ponds have HSB or just the ones with aeration?
2. What is the size of the other 2 ponds?
3. Are the HSB in the 2 other ponds the same age and size as the ones in the 3 acre pond?
4. Did the other 2 ponds freeze over completely with snow on top of the ice and stay as long as the 3 acre pond?
I did a search and found an article that might help you.

https://www.pondboss.com/news/moderators-corner/to-aerate-or-not___is-it-really-a-question

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Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
Thanks for the encouragement JP's!

For the time being, I'll enjoy the CC/BG combo...knowing that there are some HBG still there and the hopes of the possible HSB or two. I do feed once a day and have all these years, but dinnertime always seems to lack in attendance. I put in 15 CC ranging from 1 to 1.3 pounds (~14- 18") this spring with one floater. I can only witness 5 of them feeding at the surface at any one time, but my guess is there are around 10 survivors. Another 15, CC (1 pounders) will go in next year (or 5, 3 pounders - if available). Up to this point, hindsight being the key factor, I do not believe culling has been important at all. So, my current goals are to get a strong feeding population established and worry about monster sizes and culling in the upcoming years. I have grown to enjoy feeding the fish more than actually fishing for them.

I did add about 30 foot total of hedge and cedar limbs (with some folded-up hog wire fencing) to the bank for smaller fish cover this year (two different areas). If and when the time comes for the FH, larger cover can easily be added as hedge is abundant on my land. I will be looking for possible CC recruitment and the gross abundance of BG before coaxing/bribing Augie to take me out to source the FH from the Missouri river.
Hey QA, if you need a stocking of CC sometime give me a holler, we can go out on my pond and catch a bunch of them, you are welcome to some, when my feeder goes off or when I hand feed them the water absolutely churns with the BG and GS trying to get their share before the CC get there, but they back off when the CC start feeding, they will clean up whatever much I put out in not much more time then the feeder took to throw it, I seen probably 40 CC yesterday right around the feeder and they didnt get nowhere near full. thats when they are easy to catch. they are two yrs old now and between 2 and 3 lbs but I also have young ones so they are reproducing obviously.

As for FH, I cant imagine a scenario where I would want them in my fishing pond, they will clean out a ton of fish.


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QA this one should help you clean out your pond, one of them MO River FH.

Attached Images
flathead.png (67.91 KB, 43 downloads)
Last edited by gehajake; 06/17/21 04:20 PM.

All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
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Originally Posted by gehajake
As for FH, I cant imagine a scenario where I would want them in my fishing pond, they will clean out a ton of fish.

Might be tricky, but I can see some usefulness in stocking 1 or 2 Flatheads in a small pond, in the same manner that people stock Tiger Muskies for LMB control. It all depends on your goals, I suppose. If you have an overabundance of something, stock a FH, let him eat what he wants, and take him out when you're done with him. Sounds exciting.


"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." - Donny Miller
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I'm with you and QA on this one Steve_. It won't be a problem for QA. Flatheads have never been observed to eliminate prey where they are forced to grow up in water. No water supports that. FH growth and consumption would slow as prey became scarcer. On the other hand, if a FH was put in a pond which was already supporting its limit of predators and the FH was big enough ... a lot of problems of prey shortage would result.

But QA's situation is different. His CC will begin eating mostly fish when they fnally get to be 24" or so. They will want 5" BG and there is risk that a large population of 4-5" BG will develop. If it happens, his plan is a very good one. His pond is small enough that a single adult coming in at 4 to 5 lbs would still be enough FH biomass to make a difference. So a 5 lb FH would put the FH biomass at 20 lbs/acre which is the lower end of the range most waters support (20 to 98 lbs/acre). If there is sufficient forage, after reaching 5 lbs, a FH could grow 4 to 5 lbs annually. In its first year, growing at this max rate, the FH would grow from 5 to 10 lbs and eat around 75 lbs of BG. There are 11 fish to the pound when BG are 5" long so the FH in its first year has the ability to remove around 800 5" BG if it were to grow at maximum known rates. A couple of LMB need to eat a similar number of BG. A FH is a voracious predator ... but it isn't going to upend the pond in a year or even 3. Some time ago, I posted a link to paper where in Wisconsin FH were used to transform stunted bluegill lakes into lakes with large BG. It did not happen overnight. It took 3 years to see notable improvement and then they made the mistake of harvesting FH out of one of the lakes which actually set BG growth back for a while.

Like you said, if he didn't want it in there, its easy enough to catch it out. This is one advantage of a small pond. Gehajakes pond is to big for a single FH to make a similar proportional contribution. Multiple FH and one could have reproduction that works contrary to his goals. No juice worth squeezing for Gehajake, I agree he is right in saying there is no reason for them in his pond.

But for QA, It could help a stunted BG population if one happens to develop. I've attached a grid of FH growth in a number of OK lakes. It usually takes 5 years to get a FH to 5 lbs (22"). How fast they grow depends on the water they are in and population dynamics. I have personally fished 3 of the lakes and these also supported LMB and Crappie populations. The reference can be found HERE.

Attached Images
FH Growth.jpg (64.72 KB, 32 downloads)

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The answer to the following questions:

1. Do all 3 ponds have HSB or just the ones with aeration? Only the one pond has aeration

2. What is the size of the other 2 ponds? One is 1/4 acre and the other is 3 acres

3. Are the HSB in the 2 other ponds the same age and size as the ones in the 3 acre pond? They are the same age

4. Did the other 2 ponds freeze over completely with snow on top of the ice and stay as long as the 3 acre pond? Yes

Thanks again

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aguita,
Short summary:

The first time it happened, I took the blame for not moving the air stones in close to shore and figured that the water was too cold from circulation.
None of the other fish suffered and the HSB in our shallower ponds (7' to 9') deep survived just fine.
Do all ponds have aeration? Only the pond that had the die off has aeration.
How old, how big and how many HSB were in the 3 acre pond before the kill as compared to your other ponds? 50 fish, three years old and most were near 20" as far as i could tell.
Are the HSB in the 2 other ponds the same age and size as the ones in the 3 acre pond? They are the same age
What is the size of the other 2 ponds? One is 1/4 acre and the other is 3

You have 3 ponds (1/4acre and 2 three acre ponds) and HSB are only dying in the pond that has aeration. I’m no expert but it sounds like the problem is the aeration. This leaves you 3 options if you want to keep HSB in that pond.

1. Turn off the aeration and see what happens. If it’s like your other 2 ponds the HSB should be just fine.
2. Have an aeration expert from a pond management company come out and look for the solution.
3. Reread this article
https://www.pondboss.com/news/moderators-corner/to-aerate-or-not___is-it-really-a-question
and ask esshup (http://www.hoosierpondpros.com/) questions. He wrote the article on aeration.
I hope this helps you aguita!

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Originally Posted by gehajake
QA this one should help you clean out your pond, one of them MO River FH.

That flathead isn't big enough. I want something that will eat otters.

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Originally Posted by John Fitzgerald
Th
Originally Posted by gehajake
QA this one should help you clean out your pond, one of them MO River FH.

That flathead isn't big enough. I want something that will eat otters.

You need some Cajuns. By the time they finish cooking, the otters will be delicious.


8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17,L, 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 25 HSB & 250 F1 9/20,L,180# RBT 12/20, 206, 7k TFS,100#TP 5/21, 225



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Originally Posted by esshup
Just don't do any C&R of the CC. If you do, please fin clip them and report back if you catch them again.

All the CC in my pond were caught via hook out of Clarks Hill Lake. I put the ones over @ 3-4 pounds in the pond as I don't like eating those. I'd guess around 20 or so. I catch one occasionally, about every 3 trips or so. I do use a 3 foot flurocarbon leader so maybe that helps? I actually do this for bass as I have the best luck on a catfish type bottom rig with a fluro leader using cut or live BG. My bass rarely hit a lure and when they do it's the small ones.

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Originally Posted by gehajake
QA this one should help you clean out your pond, one of them MO River FH.

[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]


Congratulations on that great FH gehajake. I'm sure you've caught other great examples but that is indeed a dandy.

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/18/21 09:40 PM.

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Originally Posted by gehajake
....Hey QA, if you need a stocking of CC sometime give me a holler, we can go out on my pond and catch a bunch of them, you are welcome to some,.......As for FH, I cant imagine a scenario where I would want them in my fishing pond, they will clean out a ton of fish.

Thanks Jake, I'll take you up on that. It sounds like a lot more fun than dealing with my fish supplier. It takes more time to contact, make my order, take off work, meet the fish truck, transfer the fish to my truck, then stock in my pond Than it would to hook up with you and see your place and have fun doing it.

As far as the FH goes...stocking one or two would be a last ditch effort/hail Mary to straighten out a pond gone wrong with monster results. The intent would be for them to clean house and I am a long ways off from a decent population, let alone overpopulated.

What's the weight of yours in the Pic. My record is 29 pounds from a quarry pond from Illinois. Pretty sure yours has 29 pounds beat!


Fish on!,
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Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
Originally Posted by gehajake
....Hey QA, if you need a stocking of CC sometime give me a holler, we can go out on my pond and catch a bunch of them, you are welcome to some,.......As for FH, I cant imagine a scenario where I would want them in my fishing pond, they will clean out a ton of fish.

Thanks Jake, I'll take you up on that. It sounds like a lot more fun than dealing with my fish supplier. It takes more time to contact, make my order, take off work, meet the fish truck, transfer the fish to my truck, then stock in my pond Than it would to hook up with you and see your place and have fun doing it.

As far as the FH goes...stocking one or two would be a last ditch effort/hail Mary to straighten out a pond gone wrong with monster results. The intent would be for them to clean house and I am a long ways off from a decent population, let alone overpopulated.

What's the weight of yours in the Pic. My record is 29 pounds from a quarry pond from Illinois. Pretty sure yours has 29 pounds beat!
That was a 55, but caught on a bank pole with a 4 or 5" goldfish


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