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This summer I've been running air midnight to 7:00am. Single 4' ring diffuser at 12' in 16' water.

Spot checks of water temp consistently show ~5°F delta between surface and 9'.

canyoncreek #539160 08/24/21 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by canyoncreek
Well, esshup and others are much better at aeration theory than I, but I have read alot and listened to the Pond Boss on this topic.

You can calculate air lift and therefore water lift based on your pond size and diffuser lift ability. You can then do fairly simple math and figure how much water you are moving from bottom to top per 24 hours. It isn't bad to turn the whole pond water over (or around and around) once per 24 hours, but you do not need to move the bottom water to the top multiple time in 24 hours. To figure this out you need some knowledge of the brand diffuser disk, the pore size or rating of the membranes, then how many membranes and what depth they are at.

At 8 feet deep you will move more bottom water in all directions as you don't have as far to go up, you actually go up and out all at the same time.

Your depth, aeration membrane efficiency which means how many bubbles and how tiny those bubbles are will make a big difference in how much 'lift' or water movement you get. If you have really good water movement and the water in the bottom of the pond is turning over to the top more than one time a day then it certainly has a chance to get closer to the surface water temps which is NOT what you want.

Cooler water holds more O2, cooler water helps fish stay less stressed, cooler water is your friend when it comes to slowing down algae growth.

I would say the point of aeration is to make sure that there isn't a completely dead zone of low oxygen water below the thermocline. Getting some oxygen to the bottom also helps the air breathing bacteria do their thing to break down muck. Aeration helps avoid build up of toxic sulfide gas that will lead to a fish kill if that dead, toxic water suddenly flips over due to a big rain event or temp swing.

But you can definitely achieve the positive sides of aeration and still avoid overwarming the bottom zone and super heating the pond. I have never heard that it is the goal of aeration to make all the water homogenous in the pond. Certainly i can think of no advantage to having all the water in the pond the same (homogenous) temperature.

I also can't believe I'm adding wear and tear and higher electric costs by turning the pump on once in 24 hours and turning it off once in 24 hours vs keeping it on all the time. Certainly electric costs are low both ways and I would not figure cost into the equation in your scenario.

Can someone else really into aeration help here?
I think it would still be very helpful to know with 24/7 aeration what your temps are say at 2', 4', 6' and 8' depth. IF you still have good stratification despite 24/7 aeration then you are welcome to do as you are unless you desire the bottom to stay a bit cooler, which in that case, you would purposely aerate only during coolest hours of the day during the hottest months of the year.
A lot said here to listen to...
No need to run aeration during the day up there.. I'm a fair shake south amd west, I only run at night. I seldom make 80 surface temp.
I have a high biomass and have no issues. I would offer some advice based on my experience researching an aeration station suitable for a 2.5 ac lake the last year.. #1, most manufacturers can't tell you what aeration actually does but they tell you you darn sure need it and you need to run it 43 hours a day.
Not all fall in this category but many do..
If you had a pond covered in algae and you killed it all at one time-you might need 24/7 aeration for 10 days/2 weeks.. this is an exaggeration but point I am trying to make.

Last edited by Snipe; 08/24/21 06:10 PM.
bcraley #539162 08/24/21 07:02 PM
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Everyone, thanks for all of the discussion input!

The air temps I noted, are during one of our typical 3-5 day heatwaves. Our "normal" temps are significantly lower. However, they show how much weather stress can be rapidly forced upon the fish. For a thriving SMB/YP pond, I am definitely going to have to get my aeration correct.

I think Augie's method of midnight to 7:00AM with the diffuser a few feet off the bottom is what most of the people in the hotter regions use to keep the waters as cool as possible, yet still oxygenated.

I think my best plan will be to build the pond and then muck around with the aerators, a thermometer, and a DO meter for a year while the pond just has FHMs. I can report my data to the Pond Boss forum and receive copious amounts of excellent advice!

bcraley #539165 08/25/21 06:17 AM
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I took the thermometers to the pond yesterday evening and found that the water was 76° F at the very bottom (10 foot), 80° F at 7 foot deep, and 83° at about 6" from the surface. I don't think I would say I have an actual thermocline, but I do have cooler temps towards the bottom. Even though 83° is a bit higher than I'd like...my aeration is not currently warming the whole pond.

A few things about my pond that certainly influence it's reactions to the summer time temps and aeration...It is muddy, consistently about 12 -18" clarity. It also struggles with surface films during the heat of the summer when rain is scarce. A 1/4" rain will break it up for a day or two, but without more rain it will come right back. The pond is also tucked in low with most sides shaded and shrouded by trees...it gets very little wind action. So, this is why I tend to run my aeration 24/7 rather than nighttime only. I am comfortable with the temperature curve of my waters even though not ideal. Once again, I believe it's better for my BOW to have better DO than slightly lower temps.


Fish on!,
Noel
bcraley #539182 08/25/21 01:19 PM
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Noel, thanks for the additional data points on water temperatures! (They are helpful because I think my latitude is just a little south of yours.)


You have said twice in this thread that you leave your aeration on for better DO. However, the "dissolved" portion of the oxygen in DO is strongly temperature dependent.

[Linked Image from palax.tk]

Pumping more air bubbles through a column of oxygen-saturated water DOES NOT provide any more usable oxygen to the fish. Further, to the degree that your aeration increases your pond temperatures (it does), then it will actually decrease the usable oxygen to the fish as your temperature increases.

I could give a long thermodynamics explanation, but hopefully one of our aeration experts can explain it more clearly and succinctly.

bcraley #539193 08/25/21 02:58 PM
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This is awesome, and thanks to others for chiming in and explaining it better than I could.

My original thought was the origin of this thread, how to get YP to do well in a more southern pond. I think my point was that the YP can tolerate warmer temps than they get credit for, if they have a zone of cooler water to go to. Now, I don't know if that is strictly a hot/cold thing for their body and stress related to heat, or if it is truly dissolved oxygen levels they are seeking. If it is truly dissolved oxygen then in theory you could maximize aeration even in a warmer pond and they would do well. However I feel that the texas folks would say that at 86 or 90 degree surface temps they could maximize their aeration and DO would max out at 7.6 (per chart above) That is adequate for YP survival yet northern strain YP would still die so heat stress must be still independent of DO stress.

Banking on that assumption, and that my pond is shallow (lucky to hit 10' at full pool) I'm trying to preserve as much cool water as possible for them come the dog days of August. I can add 55 degree well water on a timer but only can do this when my house water needs are zero (while everyone is sleeping) and I can also hope that turning over the surface water by aeration at night will somehow allow the cool air to mix better with the warm water.

(that sounds like a theory as is so aptly pointed out above, when we aerate at night are we just mixing the hot water at the surface from the day's heat and pushing it down, or are we actually exposing a whole bunch of water to the air for heat loss by convection by turning on the big slow water circulation process via air lift - aeration. In my pond I can turn over the whole pond in about 24 hours so the 8 hours of night aeration only does convection to about 1/3 of the total water)

In my shallow pond the temp differential even with night time aeration from top to bottom is not much, so the DO readings from top to bottom probably are not that different.

Last edited by canyoncreek; 08/25/21 02:59 PM.
bcraley #539203 08/25/21 08:01 PM
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The only thing I can add to this discussion is that I have a spring fed flow through pond with no aeration for 2 years and the YP are doing great. The bottom water temperature is 72 and surface temperature is 84. My suggestion is to get YP from someone near you (Snipe, Rainman) and they will do just fine because the YP they have are accustomed to your climate. That’s what I did and it seems to be working so far.

bcraley #539206 08/25/21 10:22 PM
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Canyoncreek - I like that you have 55 degree well water as a safety net. If you get a crushing heat wave, you should still be able to safely get your fish through it by supplementing with well water and then aerating your water column.

Heppy - Now you are just making me jealous! Spring fed pond with no aeration required. You should probably make your fish pay rent to live in such nice accommodations.

I am hoping to buy YP from Snipe when I can get the pond going, since his conditions are similar to mine. I figure he might have the YP so well trained that they will also mow the grass around the pond and cut and stack firewood at the cabin. laugh

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bcraley #539214 08/26/21 10:19 AM
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They draw the line at the firewood Rod..

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bcraley #539219 08/26/21 11:00 AM
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Darn!

After your feed trial experiment, I was hoping your next experiment was going to be "opposable thumbs on pelvic fins"!

bcraley #539239 08/26/21 07:10 PM
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Like everything in the world of ponds, it all depends. Although you are correct it is nice to have the 55 degree well water as an option to inject cold water into the pond, then the other side of the equation is this. I'm injecting water that has very little oxygen in it directly to the part of the pond where the water might be a little less likely to exposed to the air. If I can continue to take that cold and low oxygen well water and mix it up to the top to get exposed to the air and pick up some oxygen that might be OK, and then we have to get it all the way back to the bottom without warming it up too much so that the benefit becomes a new supply of cold water that is carrying all the oxygen it can. Cold water carries more dissolved oxygen but it has to get the oxygen dissolved first!

Some can run the well water over some rocks or a waterfall to pre-oxygenate but my discharge line is buried under the frost line from the house out to the pond and comes out straight into the pond at about 4-5' of depth and about 30' out from shore. I notice when the plume from that outflow is going that it doesn't stay injected at depth, there is a little disturbance in the water at the surface too so some of that water must be going straight out, some up as well.

Adding some blue dye to the inflowing water and watching how it distributes would be neat.

Having a DO meter would also be nice smile

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bcraley #539242 08/26/21 07:56 PM
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In an emergency oxygen crash event, you could put an aerator in a position to lift the plume of well water. The well water would still be so cold and dense that you might get a nice convection cell going. The low DO well water might make several circuits from the aerator to the surface before diffusing out into the adjacent calm waters.

Your blue dye idea would certainly help optimize the correct placement of your system components.

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