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#531975 03/12/21 08:00 PM
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I’m trying to get some info for the lake owner where I fish.
It’s about a 130 acre lake. Was completely reworked in 2013. Not regularly but has been raising what I think are shiners in a 1/2 acre pond above the lake and flushing them into the lake after a period of time. He’s looking to do this again but wondering if another forage would be better? Such as thread fins or maybe Talapia?
I can supply a lot more info if needed, trying to keep it short.
Thanks


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Mark,

What are the types of predator fish in your lake?

What is the current size distribution of these game fish?

What are the management goals for the lake?

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The Bass stocked were F1. There are some up to 8/9 lbs. and a few 10s. I beginning to see a decline in numbers of 1 to 3 lbs fish but an abundance of 1 lb and smaller. It also has crappie and bream. There were no catfish stocked.
It’s like I’m sure a lot of lakes, just not managed right. I understand a lake this size is hard to manage and costly. There are several owners but none hardly ever fish so there not willing to spend a lot of money so I’m trying to get the most for there buck.


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What are the condition of crappie and BG??

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In my opinion there has not been good harvest on any of the fish. Probably most of the issues now? The crappie are mostly 9 to 11 inches long but I’d guess only a few 100 per year have been taken out. Probably less than that with the bream. I’ve been removing small bass, 1lb or under, 1200 or so a year.
Healthy wise the bream and crappie look good as far as rw. Most of the bass look good, larger bass have looked like footballs but last year begin to see some looking skinny. Just a couple year ago a 20 inch bass would be 5lb. Still see a few like that but one now 20 inches might be 3 1/2 or so
Thanks for you time!


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My initial thought is that a lot more bass and crappie have to be harvested out of there on a yearly basis.

Both Tilapia and Threadfin Shad won't overwinter.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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Mark,

I am NOT an expert, but I posed those questions above just so you would provide some more data for the actual experts on the site to evaluate.

A 130 acre lake project is so big, that literally every management action you take is going to be expensive. Therefore, paying out a little money to acquire better "data" might be your most economical alternative in the long term.

You may need to hire a consultant to perform an electrofishing survey. (If it is a community lake can you get a state agency to perform the survey?) It would give you a better sampling of the gamefish population AND the forage fish situation.

I suspect someone spent a lot of money in 2013 to completely rework the lake and stock F1 LMB. Having that initial plan run smoothly for eight years sounds about right. However, now is probably the time to plan the lake management for the next 5-8 years.

Hopefully you can get several of the experts (like Snipe) to post in your thread.

P.S. Esshup posted while I was typing - add him to the "experts list" posting in your thread.

Good luck,
Rod

Last edited by FishinRod; 03/13/21 10:34 AM. Reason: Edited to add another comment.
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There’s only a handful that fish on any kind of regular basis. I fish there more than anyone. I’ve kept very detailed records from day one. We’ve been ask to not remove any crappie. My opinion the wrong thing to do and only the small bass. They have had two surveys done and both have told them differently but just can’t get past anyone catching his crappie. One owner, guess the main one? Who does crappie fish a little thinks he needs to be the only one to keep crappie. One guy is not gonna keep it under control .
It’s an up hill battle but trying to help do what I can


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Re forage, bass need forage that is 1/4 to 1/3 their body size. It’s a matter of energy expended vs calories obtained.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Mark, if you're harvesting 1,200 small LMB a year, that's a lot! Even so, sounds like the lake is getting bass crowded. Unless you can recruit more anglers to help harvest, the problem will likely only get worse. I'm definitely not an expert, but the usual calculation is 25 to 30 lb of LMB taken out per acre. In a 130 acre lake, that would be 3,000 to 4,000.

Electro harvesting would likely be necessary to reach those numbers. Also you could look at predators which may help keep LMB & crappie in check but wouldn't risk taking over. Hybrid stripers come to mind, especially for crappie control, as do tiger muskies if they can survive your summers. Tiger muskies did a good job of LMB control in a private club lake I used to fish in Ohio.

Last edited by anthropic; 03/13/21 12:21 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Another good way to cull fish in a large BOW is to have a charity fishing event.

I have worked as a volunteer at some. If you want to see some big smiles, then load up a kid in a wheelchair onto the front platform of a bass boat. After taking about thirty 9" bass off the hook for them - you will have a great big smile too! grin

If you really wanted to do it right, I know Freedomeagle hosts some fishing events for injured vets at his ponds. I bet you could contact him via PM if someone on your end wanted advice on the organizing.

If you determined your culling needs, then you could pre-fish before the event and determine the proper bait combination to remove your targeted fish.

I have put on small minnows when the target was primarily small bass. I have also put on tiny bits of worm when we wanted the kids to remove little BG and the green sunfish.

Of course, the kids will catch a little bit of everything. One time the kid in the boat beside us caught a 4# channel cat on the little ultralight he was fishing with. He needed some help to fight the fish, but his he was awfully proud when the fish was on the deck!

Best wishes,
Rod

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So with all being said so far are we back to shiners being the best to use in the pond to “raise” in the pond to occasionally flush into the lake for forage?
Lake water is pumped into the pond but should it then be limed, fertilized, anything else added to enhance the growth of the shiners or what forage is determined to use?
Thanks all!


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Yes on the shiners. Might be able to raise fathead minnows in that same pond concurrently. Probably need all the forage you can get. Maybe raise some bluegill in that pond too.

I like the idea of a larger predator like the tiger muskie, but also feel that would take a few years to make a huge difference. If you could do some electroshocking and use that as a major culling tool, along with some larger predators, you may see some results in a year or two.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Originally Posted by Mark Hopper
I’m trying to get some info for the lake owner where I fish.
It’s about a 130 acre lake. Was completely reworked in 2013. Not regularly but has been raising what I think are shiners in a 1/2 acre pond above the lake and flushing them into the lake after a period of time. He’s looking to do this again but wondering if another forage would be better? Such as thread fins or maybe Talapia?
I can supply a lot more info if needed, trying to keep it short.
Thanks

Reading through the thread I think the one thing that would increase forage, especially for the large bass, is esshup's suggestion. But since there is a 1/2 forage pond, I'll add a couple of cents. The two fish I favor most to help you grow forage for the large bass are Moz. TP and BG. Of the two, I think I like the Moz. TP the most as I think they will provide the most leverage for that 130 acre lake the forage pond is supporting.

I like Moz TP better than BG for the same reason I like Moz TP better than shiners. They grow faster and will reach sizes that can benefit your large bass in the same year that they are dumped in.

I like Moz TP better than shiners for the same reason I like BG better than shiners. They reproduce fractionally and you can get multiple crops of forage in the same year.

Like BG, Moz TP can reach reproductive age in year 0. But unlike BG, Moz TP offspring of the first and possibly second cohort are nearly guaranteed to produce generations of their own (in a populated pond its very unlikely that age 0 BG can contribute to reproduction). This is powerful leverage especially because Moz TP die off each year. Each year, their niche is completely unoccupied by other large TP that are too large for your LMB to eat. Their fields are flush with food that they can eat but that BG cannot.

So that is why I think the greatest benefit will come from Moz TP. You can grow between 1500 to 3000 lbs of TP/acre without aeration per crop. In your forage pond, 1500 lbs of Moz TP in a single crop can be recovered in around 60 days from fertilization (of the TP eggs). Assuming all the adult females breed within the week of release, the forage would be ready in about in 70 days. To grow 1500 lbs (3000 lbs/acre) you would need 10 lbs of female which would produce around 40,000 eggs. At 75% survival, you would have 30,000 3 1/2" TP in about 70 days PROVIDED you added sufficient nutrition to support this weight of fish. So you're stocking the 130 acre lake with 11.5 lbs of Moz TP per acre (almost but not yet ready to reproduce). This isn't a great quantity of forage ... BUT ... it is more than you would be growing with either BG or shiners in the same span of time. Unlike BG or shiners, the Moz TP are going to reproduce in the same year, at least those that do not get eaten by LMB. Moz TP Males reach reproductive ages in a little over 110 days some perhaps sooner. The females will be having to discharge eggs until the Males are ready as they mature sooner. But by Day 120 post-fertilization the Moz TP forage you stock will be reproducing. If 25% of the females survive to this age, there would be 750 lbs of females surviving that could produce 3 million fry per cohort. Depending on weather, you could get two cohorts. But the first cohort should reach 3 to 4 inches by the time temperatures stop them growing. Very acceptable easy to capture forage for bass between 18 and 25 inches in length.

It's really a guess how many of the first stocking would survive to reproduce but if enough did, the forage pond could have a very meaningful impact on forage production by the end of the season.

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/15/21 08:36 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Thanks jpsdad for such a detailed reply but I need schooled on Moz TP? I assuming that’s Tilapia?

Last edited by Mark Hopper; 03/15/21 08:11 AM. Reason: Spelling

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Mozambique Tilapia. These are especially suited among tilapias for producing forage for big bass. They will attain lengths between 3 and 4 inches within 70 days (as will most TP) but Mozambique Tilapia reproduce at a younger age and this is why they are so much better than Niles or Blue. This is important for the following reasons:

1. A second generation is produced sooner. (I am not speaking cohorts of the original adults, 0 year Moz TP... the offspring of the original adults ... will produce a generation earlier than Blues or Niles). This is important for large LMB because the first cohort of 0-year females will be larger in size at the end of the season than those produced by Blues and Niles.

2. Moz TP of 0 year could produce more than one cohort by the end of the season (not possible with Blues or Niles)

3. Early onset of maturity slows growth and this occurs around 4 to 5 inches in length. By the end of season, most of 0 year adults will be less than 7" in length. In other words, no 0 year Mozambique TP will be too large for your 9 lb LMB to eat.

It's a 130 acre lake. Ideally you would just stock 8 lbs/acre of Females and 2 lbs/acre of Males every year that are Age 1 fish of sufficient size to evade predators. But you are probably talking well over 20K a year to do that. Plus, I don't think you would ever find a seller that would sell males and females independently by weight. Usually females would only comprise 25-33% (perhaps less) of the weight of adult TP. To get 8 lbs of Females would require purchasing 25 to 32 lbs of adults (now the cost could be over 40K). Male and Female Moz TP grow at the same rate for the first 60 days so the forage pond could produce 5.5 lbs of females (per acre) for the 130 acre lake at the time the forage pond is harvested. So there is a lot of leverage in the forage pond .... provided ... a sufficient weight of 0-year females produce a cohort before being eaten by your LMB.

Check out the graphs below that depict the concepts presented. These data were obtained from this paper.
[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

Last edited by jpsdad; 03/15/21 09:35 AM.

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How many Moz TP would we need to put in this 1/2 acre pond to get started?

Last edited by Mark Hopper; 03/15/21 09:57 AM. Reason: Spelling

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jpsdad,

He is going to be a little chilly in TN in the spring, and might get a late start. (I will also be cold in KS.)

How is the cold tolerance of the Moz TP compared to the blues?

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Originally Posted by Mark Hopper
How many Moz TP would we need to put in this 1/2 acre pond to get started?

Ideally you would have 10 lbs of Females. Seed production is a function of weight ... not number. Now at 6" this is 5 fish to the pound and so it would take 50 6" females to produce the seed you need for the scenario above. 1 year females are usually going to be 6" to 7" in length if given plenty of feed. You don't need many males. Not more than 1 for every 5 females is necessary. If you overstock the males, production of fry will suffer. You may need to purchase 40 to 50 lbs of adults to get the females you need. the remaining adults can be released in the lake if you desire and could help generate a generational cohort a little sooner (as 0-year females will mature before their male counterparts).

To get higher survival of fry, let the brood remain in the pond only as long as it takes for the last females to release the first cohort from their mouths. This will probably be between day 24 to 28 or so. A large mesh seine (1" or so) can harvest the brood while leaving the fry to grow to day seventy. The brood could be released in the main lake to continue producing. Rather than flush the crop of 3.5 " TP, I might try to harvest most by seine and protect them in blocking nets or cages for a day or two in the main lake. The purpose here would be to increase survival to reproductive age. The more females of the forage pond crop that survive to reproduce ... the more forage this scenario will make.

After harvesting the TP ... flush the rest and then refill the pond and stock 20 brood pairs of BG flushing and redoing every 60 days. You should produce a lot forage from that 1/2 acre but by far most of will probably come in the final stages of summer and autumn from the offspring of the 3.5" TP fry from the first crop of the forage pond.


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The temps need to be above 68 degrees and Ideally above 72. Small fry will not survive in good numbers below 68" degrees. This is true of blue and nile too. They will not spawn below 68 degrees either. The goal is production of brood within the main bow at standing weights that may otherwise by cost prohibitive. I would think that water temps would be in appropriate ranges in Tennessee by the middle of May. A person could get a 15 to 30 day head start in a small green house and then release fry in in the 5/8 to 1" length to forage pond. If the middle of May would be OK, by the middle of August the females fry are able to reproduce and some would with the Males already in the main bow. Regardless temperature tolerance, the Moz. will produce more offspring than blues or niles due to higher fecundity and a greater weight of them will be accessible to LMB due to their early maturity. IMHO, temperature tolerance should not be a consideration when production of forage is the goal. Having them live longer or grow larger isn't the goal ... reproduction and forage at optimum sizes is the goal.


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Thanks jpsdad.

You are inserting a LOT of useful information in this thread!

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You are most welcome, both of you of course. It's great to see others be as interested about these things as I happen to be.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Going to chime in with a couple of ideas and +s on prior comments.

I like the HSB idea for several reasons. Also TFS will work there but may be subject to winter kill ( my guess 1/3rd of the time). However if the lake is deep enough (thermal safe space) like big reservoirs they may not die off. TFS are very good for med sized LMB 2-4 lbs. They need a good plankton bloom.

My guess is you are short on forage in the 4-5 inch size. If med sized LMB have falling RW but small ones and big ones look ok then you have a size distribution gap. As a general rule take out LMB in the size range that looks undernourished and try to get forage increase in the size that feeds them. Only way to know for sure is a survey. One way to get that size forage , assuming you can stock tilapia there, is grow them in the forage pond. Using aquaculture methods (lot of work and feeding) you can grow 3000 lbs of tilapia in the 1/2 acre and gradually sort and move them to the big pond. You could at the same time add 5-6 inch BG after habituation, into the main lake. With these methods you could add significant forage.

I have not discussed cost. Adding TFS can be costly and there is a right method. Growing out tilapia can be costly and require work. Feeding is expensive but will help the BG , HSB and tilapia and possibly the TFS.

I would not undertake a large scale effort without a survey - penny wise and pound foolish.
Also with any augmentation effort (increasing lake productivity) its not a one time effort. If you increase the amount of fish by , stocking , feeding , fertilization etc then you will have more fish in the furure to deal with. That is ok if you can manage the population structure through fishing and other harvest methods.

On the GShiners note that many of the hatchery fish populations have a disease that over a couple of years greatly reduces reproduction. While I like GSH as a forage fish I do not like to rely heavily rely on them if you are stocking them from a hatchery.

Ovipleistophora ovariae, initially Plistophora ovariae Summerfelt, 1964, is the etiological agent for ovipleistophoriasis (microsporidiosis) of the golden shiner Notemigonus crysoleucas.
The parasite is important to the extent that it reduces fecundity or sterilizes (parasitic castration) the host. Mean ovary weight from fish with infection was nearly half (55%) that of fish without an infection (Summerfelt 1964). The intensity of infection averaged 45% of 473 fish examined in histological sections of collections from 24 fish farms in 12 states (Summerfelt and Warner 1970a).

Last edited by ewest; 03/15/21 06:41 PM.















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"One way to get that size forage , assuming you can stock tilapia there, is grow them in the forage pond. Using aquaculture methods (lot of work and feeding) you can grow 3000 lbs of tilapia in the 1/2 acre and gradually sort and move them to the big pond."

ewest,

I think I am failing to grasp one of your points. Your advice regards trying to cover the gap in forage in the 4-5" range.

Why is it important to sort the tilapia before moving them to the main pond? (That seems like a significant amount of work.)

Once the size distribution is centered around the 4-5" range could you transfer them in bulk without the step of sorting and handling? Wouldn't the healthy larger bass that are looking for a bigger tilapia snack, and the smaller bass looking for small tilapia, also benefit from moving some supplemental food into their gape range?

Or is your tilapia brood stock just too valuable to remove from the forage pond?

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Tilapia have an odd reproductive approach. They can start breeding at 4 mths old and hatch a new batch about every 30 days. The most productive method is to move some but not all. I would keep my first breeders and move the offspring at 4-5 inches. Repeating through summer. In about Sept I would move all of the balance to the big pond. That should provide the max poundage from the grow out pond over spring and summer.
















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