Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
traderfjp, Briarwood, Ohriverrat, john jay, JackTimber
16904 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics38,284
Posts519,266
Members16,905
Most Online3,583
Jan 15th, 2020
Top Posters
esshup 24,514
ewest 20,319
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 13,452
Who's Online Now
9 members (RStringer, BamTX, anthropic, Broz1, Fyfer123, wbuffetjr, nehunter, Steve_, Sunil), 262 guests, and 406 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Questions and Feedback on SMB
#525994 09/17/20 09:26 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 702
Likes: 23
J
jpsdad Offline OP
OP Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 702
Likes: 23
For a little background before the questions.

Bill Cody and Dave Willis co-authored and independently authored some very informative articles on SMB. One which I found interesting was one where SMB were not stocked with other sport fish. Research on SMB monoculture was studied by Buck and Thoits and their conclusion was that of all the fish studied (SMB, LMB, BG, YP, BBH, WCP) SMB had the greatest potential for harvestable crops. They found that ponds could be cropped such that annual crop would exceed the winter carrying capacity. No less than three attributes contribute to this potential. Three that come to mind are modest reproduction, cannibalism, and a broad trophic exploitation. By the latter I mean that foods that are sub par for LMB are exploited efficiently by SMB. So these include insects and other invertebrates. The solo SMB is "kinda like" its own combination of predator and prey. Of the six species studied, only the predators SMB and LMB could stand alone as self sustaining systems for growing harvestable fish. We now know, of course, that predators are keystones to diverse communities and so Buck and Thoit's findings on monocultures should fit within the importance of predation.

So despite the SMB's potential in combination with invertebrates and their offspring as forage, we can think of combinations with a forage fish that might enhance SMB growth and ultimate size by providing additional high quality fish forage. RES seem to have proven to fill this niche. On the other hand, WIllis and Cody mention that BG, GSF, redbreast sunfish, crappie, gizzard shad, bullhead catfish, and Orange Spotted Sunfish are detrimental to SMB. So this brings me to the first question.

Why are OSS detrimental to SMB?

All of the detrimental fish came as no surprise to me save for one. The Orange spotted sunfish in most populations has a mean length between 2" and 3" in length and very rarely achieves a length greater than 4". They also tend to die in only 3 to 4 years and so the question is ... for what reasons would the OSS be detrimental. Are they not good forage, so prolific that they outcompete the SMB for invertebrates, or perhaps do they interfere too much with SMB on their spawning beds? In Oklahoma, one study found that the OSS presence was positively correlated with higher LMB standing weights. So I am wondering what dynamic is working there.

Could SMB benefit from a very limited number of LMB?

So in keeping with the SMB as a stand alone reproducing sport fish, there are opportunities to add other non reproductive fish in small quantities as bonus fish. So ideas around this theme may be positively sexed BG or YP of sufficient size to escape predation, or perhaps a predator like HSB or LMB where the latter are positively identified females. So along this theme, the idea is a ladder where LMB are stocked at a rate of 3 (1 year old females/acre) every 4 years. Would the smaller SMB provide acceptable forage for LMB to grow at reasonable rates? Would the SMB require too much energy in capture to be good forage, for example. At this low stocking rate, could the SMB reproduce sufficiently and would the increased growth of surviving SMB be sufficient so as to not diminish the annual crop of SMB?

What are best reproducing forage fish (not sport fish) to introduce for the benefit of SMB?

So along this theme what may represent optimum? I know some members have had good success with GSH but what are your thoughts about whether it they are an optimal forage? But do they get too large, for example, to be optimal? Snipe has introduced RSH and BNM and has observed reproduction in a pond already stocked with fish. Many ponds can also sustain populations of Gams. Are they large enough to represent optimal forage? Can a combination of these smaller minnows contribute as much usable forage as can GSH?

Last edited by jpsdad; 09/17/20 09:42 AM. Reason: Grammar
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #525999 09/17/20 10:39 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,319
Likes: 20
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,319
Likes: 20
A lot there to digest. Will start with this one
"So along this theme, the idea is a ladder where LMB are stocked at a rate of 3 (1 year old females/acre) every 4 years. "
LMB can reproduce with SMB. I would not count on non-mixing.
















Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
ewest #526018 09/17/20 09:22 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 702
Likes: 23
J
jpsdad Offline OP
OP Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 702
Likes: 23
Originally Posted by ewest
A lot there to digest. Will start with this one
"So along this theme, the idea is a ladder where LMB are stocked at a rate of 3 (1 year old females/acre) every 4 years. "
LMB can reproduce with SMB. I would not count on non-mixing.

It occurred to me, particularly with the absence of LMB boys, that the LMB girls have no choice but to spawn with SMB males when the opportunities afford themselves while the LMB females are ripe. So I wouldn't count on no-mixing for sure. On the other hand, producing dependable crops of meanmouths seems too good to be true also. So there should probably be some expectation between these two extremes.

To be successful, they need to be trying to mate with one other. The gametes have a very limited time to make their connection once they are expelled from the parental fish. Spermatozoa particularly lose their vitality quickly and after a couple minutes they are unlikely to fertilize an egg. Dependable success in the wild would require the male SMB to remain on the nest and engage in the act of spawning with the female LMB. Accidental fertilization (where the male isn't intending to fertilize the eggs) is much less likely. I know both accidental and deliberate fertilization happens, but it seems the probability of success depends largely on the likelihood of the cooperative engagement and the percentage of fertilized eggs that are viable (viability is relatively low in this combination).

Maybe this one of those "it depends" things where if you wanted meanmouth production you wouldn't get any but if didn't want any you'd be neck deep in them.

Last edited by jpsdad; 09/17/20 09:23 PM.
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526019 09/17/20 09:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 13
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 13
I'm loving this..
ewest, if hybridization occurred, what would you expect-short term.??
jpsdad, you have my full attention here as I have 2 female LMB I was considering stocking, unreal that you ask the above questions while I'm contemplating the potential shortfalls of this..

Last edited by Snipe; 09/17/20 09:33 PM.

I Subscribe!
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
Snipe #526032 09/18/20 08:26 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 702
Likes: 23
J
jpsdad Offline OP
OP Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 702
Likes: 23
Originally Posted by Snipe
I'm loving this..
ewest, if hybridization occurred, what would you expect-short term.??
quote]

I am interested in this as well.

[quote]jpsdad, you have my full attention here as I have 2 female LMB I was considering stocking, unreal that you ask the above questions while I'm contemplating the potential shortfalls of this..[/

With regard to shortfalls, I can't get the old Rolling Stones' song to leave my head. You know the one, "You can't always get .." I apologize if I put a song in your head smile If only everything worked out according to plans.

Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526045 09/18/20 03:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 255
Likes: 5
Online Content
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 255
Likes: 5
Quote
What are best reproducing forage fish (not sport fish) to introduce for the benefit of SMB?

So along this theme what may represent optimum? I know some members have had good success with GSH but what are your thoughts about whether it they are an optimal forage? But do they get too large, for example, to be optimal? Snipe has introduced RSH and BNM and has observed reproduction in a pond already stocked with fish. Many ponds can also sustain populations of Gams. Are they large enough to represent optimal forage? Can a combination of these smaller minnows contribute as much usable forage as can GSH?

When I see SMB, the first forage item that comes to mind is crayfish. They do have their risks, though. GSH are good, but you need to make sure the shiners don't outgrow the smaller mouth gape of the SMB (See Shorty's thread on here titled "On the fly tonight" where he's removed 250+ 5.5-8" GSH from his 1/4 acre SMB pond).

Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526054 09/18/20 08:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,452
Likes: 20
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,452
Likes: 20
jpsdad quote - ""On the other hand, Willis and Cody mention that BG, GSF, redbreast sunfish, crappie, gizzard shad, bullhead catfish, and Orange Spotted Sunfish are detrimental to SMB. So this brings me to the first question.''
In what Willis & Cody article did you see that orange spotted sunfish and RBS were detrimental to SMB? As I know it that article "Talking Points: Smallmouth Bass" did not mention that OSS nor RBS were a problem with SMB. Did the authors of that (what) article mentioning OSS have any mention why they thought OSS and or RBS were detrimental to SMB?.

I am not real familiar with the biology of OSS nor RBS so I can only guess why OSS would not be a compatible forage species for SMB. 1. OSS if is aggressive and abundant they could prey heavily on the SMB eggs and fry. 2. OSS - RBS when abundant would deplete too many of the natural foods probably invertebrates needed by SMB fry to grow into fingerlings. 3. Direct competition for living space and food items especially among younger fish of both species may be the biggest detriment for OSS or RBS living well with SMB???? 4. Since OSS adults remain 6” or less this would make them a less desirable panfish. Although since OSS remain small during most of its life span this could be a good prey size for the larger SMB (9”-16”).
Generally a forage species and predator species are considered most compatible when each has a somewhat different niche and the adults feed on mostly different rather than similar food items. Adults feeding on different food levels allows the pond to produce a higher biomass of fish.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/18/20 09:33 PM.

Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
Steve_ #526056 09/18/20 08:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 13
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 13
Originally Posted by Steve_
Quote
What are best reproducing forage fish (not sport fish) to introduce for the benefit of SMB?

So along this theme what may represent optimum? I know some members have had good success with GSH but what are your thoughts about whether it they are an optimal forage? But do they get too large, for example, to be optimal? Snipe has introduced RSH and BNM and has observed reproduction in a pond already stocked with fish. Many ponds can also sustain populations of Gams. Are they large enough to represent optimal forage? Can a combination of these smaller minnows contribute as much usable forage as can GSH?

When I see SMB, the first forage item that comes to mind is crayfish. They do have their risks, though. GSH are good, but you need to make sure the shiners don't outgrow the smaller mouth gape of the SMB (See Shorty's thread on here titled "On the fly tonight" where he's removed 250+ 5.5-8" GSH from his 1/4 acre SMB pond).

Just like anything else, one change affects another. In my case, I stocked Crawfish at the same time as initial stocking of SMB.
2lbs of crawfish with 55 2.5" SMB. Looking back I see now how big of a mistake that was as the craws reproduced and OUTproduced the SMB. My vegetation disappeared, my water was turbid, it was an obvious mistake.
Crawfish are also lower in protein than fish..so I believe SMB are going to grow best on a mixture of fish, craws and inverts..the ratio is an unknown. I have GSH similar to shorty's but I planned ahead just enough there to introduce SAE in very low number with complete speculation that they would keep the bigger GSH thinned out. So far, that seems to be working.
I also don't think a 6" shiner is too big for an 18-19" SMB but the question is will they chase it?? is there something else easier to catch that satisfies the SMB. Satisfied and growing at max rate are not the same..Highest return on invested energy is key.
I had thoughts that YP would be a possible food source for smallies as well, nd I'm sure they do get a few but after observing YP from 2" to 6", I can assure you they are underestimated as an aggressive fish, and very very quick.
I know there is way more to this than we will ever know but I still believe the statement Bill made on keeping a diverse forage/food web is more important for SMB than it is for "some" other species.


I Subscribe!
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526058 09/18/20 09:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 24,514
Likes: 20
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 24,514
Likes: 20
jpsdad, I think we need to put the cart in reverse and go back to right before the questions. The background is missing what kind, where and how much cover/structure is in the pond. Is that cover/structure in the pond to help the SMB or to help the forage fish? Is there minimal, nominal or optimal SMB spawning substrate?


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526061 09/18/20 09:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,452
Likes: 20
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,452
Likes: 20
Not enough good research has been done with any of these topics to draw definite conclusions. All is mostly speculation so far. So members get busy, stock your ponds, and do some of this practical fish squeezing research and report it.


Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
Snipe #526063 09/18/20 09:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 255
Likes: 5
Online Content
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 255
Likes: 5
Originally Posted by Snipe
Originally Posted by Steve_
Quote
What are best reproducing forage fish (not sport fish) to introduce for the benefit of SMB?

So along this theme what may represent optimum? I know some members have had good success with GSH but what are your thoughts about whether it they are an optimal forage? But do they get too large, for example, to be optimal? Snipe has introduced RSH and BNM and has observed reproduction in a pond already stocked with fish. Many ponds can also sustain populations of Gams. Are they large enough to represent optimal forage? Can a combination of these smaller minnows contribute as much usable forage as can GSH?

When I see SMB, the first forage item that comes to mind is crayfish. They do have their risks, though. GSH are good, but you need to make sure the shiners don't outgrow the smaller mouth gape of the SMB (See Shorty's thread on here titled "On the fly tonight" where he's removed 250+ 5.5-8" GSH from his 1/4 acre SMB pond).

Just like anything else, one change affects another. In my case, I stocked Crawfish at the same time as initial stocking of SMB.
2lbs of crawfish with 55 2.5" SMB. Looking back I see now how big of a mistake that was as the craws reproduced and OUTproduced the SMB. My vegetation disappeared, my water was turbid, it was an obvious mistake.
Crawfish are also lower in protein than fish..so I believe SMB are going to grow best on a mixture of fish, craws and inverts..the ratio is an unknown. I have GSH similar to shorty's but I planned ahead just enough there to introduce SAE in very low number with complete speculation that they would keep the bigger GSH thinned out. So far, that seems to be working.
I also don't think a 6" shiner is too big for an 18-19" SMB but the question is will they chase it?? is there something else easier to catch that satisfies the SMB. Satisfied and growing at max rate are not the same..Highest return on invested energy is key.
I had thoughts that YP would be a possible food source for smallies as well, nd I'm sure they do get a few but after observing YP from 2" to 6", I can assure you they are underestimated as an aggressive fish, and very very quick.
I know there is way more to this than we will ever know but I still believe the statement Bill made on keeping a diverse forage/food web is more important for SMB than it is for "some" other species.

Yeah, for sure. I was just saying that crayfish (as I call them) come to mind as the #1 SMB forage item. It amazes me at how many people have issues with them, especially, like you said, with over-production and water clarity issues. In your case, you stocked SMB with your crayfish, but a 2.5" SMB can't do anything with an adult crayfish until many, many months (or years). With that aside, you'd still think that SMB would completely decimate a crayfish population once they got to the right size to eat them. I think Quarter Acre also has crayfish issues if I'm not mistaken? Has anyone on here had success with them?

I also didn't know that crayfish are lower in protein than fish. From what I read, the majority of a juvenile SMB's diet is insects and invertebrates, like you suggested. If you had to do it again, would you skip the craws completely, or change your SMB stocking rates/sizes?

Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526069 09/18/20 10:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 13
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 13
Steve, if I started over I would wait until SMB are in the 6-8" range before adding crawdads. Key is to have suitable habitat to support access AND a portion of inaccessibility for continued production of craws. I didn't think 2lbs of 2" craws would turn into 425lbs removed in 1 year. I have a substantial amount of rock so the craws just did what they do best-survive. If the SMB would have been bigger I think they would have done a better job of hammering the mid size, prolific females. I don't think I would have changed the stocking rates, this was a tad heavier than Bill C recommends but I stocked very small fish of known age so "I" had control of growth instead of buying runts. For instance, if I would have started with, say 8-10" fish that were of unknown age-could be 2yr olds if not properly fed, then a good portion of their lives are used up that can never be gained back and grown into trophy size fish, OR..they could be extremely healthy yr0 fish that had an abundance of feed for the number of SMB present-best case but darn hard to find. those would be 16-20$ each but worth it.
We'll see what next months fall net samples look like and go from there.

jpsdad, is this what you were referring to???
Quote "Warmwater fish reported as detrimental to smallies are: largemouth bass, green sunfish, bluegills, orange-spotted sunfish, redbreast sunfish, crappie, gizzard shad, and bullhead catfish. These fish are hardy and reproduce prolifically then compete for both prime habitat and food... making these fish part of the "problem" managing for smallmouth.

Last edited by Snipe; 09/18/20 10:49 PM.

I Subscribe!
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
Snipe #526070 09/18/20 11:09 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 702
Likes: 23
J
jpsdad Offline OP
OP Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 702
Likes: 23
Originally Posted by Snipe
jpsdad, is this what you were referring to???
Quote "Warmwater fish reported as detrimental to smallies are: largemouth bass, green sunfish, bluegills, orange-spotted sunfish, redbreast sunfish, crappie, gizzard shad, and bullhead catfish. These fish are hardy and reproduce prolifically then compete for both prime habitat and food... making these fish part of the "problem" managing for smallmouth.

That was it. The other really great articles form a really good resource for planning around SMB. The link to the article is HERE.

Originally Posted by Bill Cody
I am not real familiar with the biology of OSS nor RBS so I can only guess why OSS would not be a compatible forage species for SMB. 1. OSS if is aggressive and abundant they could prey heavily on the SMB eggs and fry. 2. OSS - RBS when abundant would deplete too many of the natural foods probably invertebrates needed by SMB fry to grow into fingerlings. 3. Direct competition for living space and food items especially among younger fish of both species may be the biggest detriment for OSS or RBS living well with SMB???? 4. Since OSS adults remain 6” or less this would make them a less desirable panfish. Although since OSS remain small during most of its life span this could be a good prey size for the larger SMB (9”-16”).

Thank you Bill. To be sure, I don't know much about OSS either. I know specimens > 4" are few in a population and that in the south few OSS live longer than 3 years. They are not particularly fecund. Just a few hundred eggs typically. Not sure if the spawn more than once but they do spawn over a broad period from late spring to fall. They are a lot like a minnow in terms of size but are laterally compressed. Height vs Length is more like a GSF than a BG. They grow slow and I think they would benefit the advanced fingerling sizes of LMB most which may be why the are correlated with greater LMB standing weights.

My general sense, is that they cannot attain large standing weights in the way that BG can. Though I could be wrong about that. Where one is trying to maximize the standing weight of SMB, I think modest standing weights of prey, whatever they are, promotes that goal. They need to reproduce well, produce several times their standing weight in offspring each year, and be vigorous enough not to be extirpated. Perhaps, the key to survival of a minimum overwintered population is a good fall harvest of the SMB. Anyways, I can't say that OSS would be good for SMB in the way they are for LMB. Just wanted to understand why they wouldn't be good for both as a supplemental forage species.

Hey guys, I had almost given up on this thread but have been reading some great ideas and comments. Thank you for commenting.

Last edited by jpsdad; 09/18/20 11:33 PM.
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526071 09/18/20 11:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 13
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 13
Thanks for that, jpsdad.
Steve, This was a comment from the above mentioned article..

" Did you know that the "energy density" of crayfish is low? By that, we mean calories per unit weight of crayfish. Fishes tend to be much higher in energy density, with some oily fishes such as shad or smelt being very high. So, a smallmouth bass eating a certain same weight of fishes will grow faster than one eating the same weight of crayfish.


I Subscribe!
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
Bill Cody #526081 09/19/20 07:32 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,860
Likes: 22
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,860
Likes: 22
Originally Posted by Bill Cody
Not enough good research has been done with any of these topics to draw definite conclusions. All is mostly speculation so far. So members get busy, stock your ponds, and do some of this practical fish squeezing research and report it.

My SMB sure like to reproduce. I'm seeing quite a few 2-3" long specimens in this shallow water that I drive across almost daily. Saw that size also early this spring so I presume different pairs spawned at different times through the year. I did dump some crushed limestone rock beds and have rock lined the pond bank so they have perhaps had pretty good spawning substrate in an otherwise clay pond.

My RES pond turned into RES/SMB pond This is the thread about my SMB pond that has SMB with RES the main forage.

Where I am seeing numerous small SMB fingerlings.

[Linked Image from forums.pondboss.com]

Last edited by snrub; 09/19/20 07:34 AM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526083 09/19/20 08:04 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 4,801
Likes: 12
R
RAH Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 4,801
Likes: 12
I stocked FHM, GSH, RES, YP, papershell crayfish, lake chubsucker, and SMB. I know the chubsuckers, GSH, YP, and SMB have spawned. I also no longer have a curly leaf pondweed infestation maybe due to papershells. I did build a riprap jetty and placed stones as recommended for SMB spawning. Pond is 1 acre. I know the SMB have grown very fast based on some sporadic fishing. I only stocked 20 SMB (10 in each of 2 consecutive years). Glad to have experts come out and see what they think. We have plenty of room for social distancing.

Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526084 09/19/20 08:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,643
Likes: 4
Offline
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,643
Likes: 4
Just following along. I’ve been very fortunate in that my 60 SMB, stocked five years ago appear to be doing very well. Not a lot of reproduction, but some.
I will agree with one comment above that stated larger SMB will take down larger GSH. My SMB are in the 19” range now, and we can throw out any size GSH, and the SMB will take it. I added crawdads, but not a lot a year after the SMB, I have a few around, but not many. We’ve been catching a few 4” YP, so those appear to be surviving as well.
Very interesting thread.


6 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (way too many), SMB, and HSB (didn’t make it. 0 seen in 5 yrs)
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526112 09/20/20 07:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,428
Likes: 18
T
Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,428
Likes: 18
Ok guys, I have a question. If i was to raise some smb in a cage and feed daily how long does it take a smb to reach 10" from a normal sized smb that one would purchase from a hatchery? I think it can be done at my place but i would think they would have to be 10" before letting them loose in the pond. After my fish kill, i seem to have room for them in the pond.

Last edited by TGW1; 09/20/20 07:03 AM.

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
TGW1 #526114 09/20/20 08:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,492
Likes: 4
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,492
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by TGW1
Ok guys, I have a question. If i was to raise some smb in a cage and feed daily how long does it take a smb to reach 10" from a normal sized smb that one would purchase from a hatchery? I think it can be done at my place but i would think they would have to be 10" before letting them loose in the pond. After my fish kill, i seem to have room for them in the pond.

Two to four months would be my guess, it would depend on the size you start with, how well they take to feed, and how much you feed them. I'm assuming you would start with 6-8" fish. I did something similar at my dad's old pond but put the SMB behind a large circular blocking net next to the dock instead of using a cage, it worked well.



Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
Bill Cody #526128 09/21/20 06:36 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 702
Likes: 23
J
jpsdad Offline OP
OP Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 702
Likes: 23
Originally Posted by Bill Cody
Generally a forage species and predator species are considered most compatible when each has a somewhat different niche and the adults feed on mostly different rather than similar food items. Adults feeding on different food levels allows the pond to produce a higher biomass of fish.

Bill this is an area that has long interested me particularly as it applies to favoring the biomass of a particular species. When a predator like LMB or SMB are considered, whether they can achieve a greater standing weight when combined with prey fish depends in large part on what the combination is. So typically, alone LMB might range between 50 and 120 lbs/acre whilst SMB between 75 and 180 lbs. One would think that introducing fish prey would sustainably and significantly increase the standing weight of LMB and/or SMB. But if this prey fish is BG, the LMB standing weight is not improved whilst the SMB standing weight significantly diminished. So a prey fish like BG does not provide much (if any) additional food to support a biomass of LMB and it actually removes food supporting a biomass of SMB.

I have to admit, when I first learned this about the LMB/BG combination, my intuition rebelled against it. However, when we think about interspecies competition ... the complex picture of species interaction begins to take shape. The difference between an LMB pond with BG and without, even though the biomass of LMB isn't significantly altered, is a remarkable difference. Without BG, there are many LMB of small sizes whilst with BG there are fewer LMB where some attain much larger ultimate weight.

The solo predator scenario is an interesting scenario in part because a large proportion of the biomass, though distributed through many fish, are of harvestable size. For example, subsequent generations (offspring of original stocking) of the solo scenario of LMB tend to grow faster in the first two years of life than the subsequent generations do in the presence of BG. This slowing effect on LMB growth in their early life is due, of course, to interspecies competition. BG YOY outgrow the LMB fry and fingerling gapes and eat many of the same foods. What this means from the perspective of the solo scenario is that subsequent generations have the potential to attain a harvestable size in their first year of life. It is interesting that predators can be cropped at annual weights/acre that are comparable to sustainable (supporting balance) combined crops in predator/prey combinations.

On the other hand, we can think of other combinations of prey that might support a greater standing weight of predators than a hardy prey fish like the BG. On this tack, I haven't discovered research that satisfied me that they were seeking data under sustained cropping of the predator. Even so, some the LMB standing weights achieved are noteworthy. For example, with GSH and FHM as prey, standing weights approaching 400 lbs/acre were achieved in 1.5 years. This led to the extirpation of the FHM of course. Swingle achieved 170 lbs/acre with Gams in 1 years, again this led to the extirpation of the Gams. To be sure, these high standing weights for predators are not likely sustainable under any scenario but it would seem they suggest some prey, when not competitive, may allow for increased carrying and production of predators. Prey that can persist without extirpation, that remain small and vulnerable to predators throughout life, have high reproduction rates, produce large crops of offspring relative to their standing weight, exploit lower trophic levels, and have short spans of life that turnover the population are what I would consider "ideal" for this purpose. To large degree, the persistence of populations is the key to providing forage that expands production on a sustainable basis. I think part of this picture are the vigor of the prey. But in terms of management, the cropping of the predators might help give seasonal abundance to the prey and seasonal reduction of predation allowing more marginal prey to be viable. Habitat can play, as esshup mentioned, a very important role as well.

I think SMB are particularly interesting because they are less dependent on fish prey early in their life. The delay of full on piscivory, (it might possibly be argued that they are never truly full on piscivores), may render some of the smaller minnow species that are unacceptable candidates for LMB viable for SMB on a sustainable basis.

Last edited by jpsdad; 09/21/20 06:57 AM.
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526135 09/21/20 08:03 AM
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 121
C
Offline
C
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 121
There are an awful lot of big words in that read. I'm gonna have to go through it a few times. Interesting I'm confused on ont thing worth mentioning:

If BG dont make LMB bigger, what are the LMB eating without bluegill in enough quantity?


Im going to ask a lot of questions, but only because I'm clueless
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526136 09/21/20 08:31 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,428
Likes: 18
T
Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,428
Likes: 18
For me prior to my fish kill due to excess vegetation the way i grew lmb fast and up to the 9 lb range in just 5 yrs was to have diversity of the forage and plenty of it. Crawfish, Threadfin shad, golden shiners, Red Ear sunfish, Bluegill, Fathead minnows, Tilapia and in the latter years little lmb. The downside might be too many reduced lmb reproduction but on the other hand fewer lmb helped the lmb grow larger to.

Last edited by TGW1; 09/21/20 08:33 AM.

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
CityDad #526143 09/21/20 10:08 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 702
Likes: 23
J
jpsdad Offline OP
OP Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 702
Likes: 23
Quote
There are an awful lot of big words in that read. I'm gonna have to go through it a few times. Interesting I'm confused on ont thing worth mentioning:

If BG dont make LMB bigger, what are the LMB eating without bluegill in enough quantity?

When you re-read you will notice I didn't say that "BG don't make LMB bigger". I said ''with BG there are fewer LMB where some attain much larger ultimate weight". The distinction is this. Having larger LMB doesn't make the standing weight or the carrying capacity of LMB larger. The thing to keep in mind is that most of the biomass of BG are too big for most LMB to eat. The sheer horde of them eat every other thing the LMB might otherwise eat. What the BG do is provide as much food as the LMB would otherwise get without them with one major difference. The food is mostly in the form of fish rather than a combination of fish and invertebrates (where fish are higher quality feed). BG are so competitive with YOY LMB that they reduce LMB recruitment. Reduced LMB recruitment and more fish in the diet of LMB allow LMB attain greater individual sizes when BG are present but it doesn't substantially increase the carrying capacity nor standing weights of LMB.

Last edited by jpsdad; 09/21/20 10:22 AM.
1 member likes this: CityDad
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526166 09/21/20 10:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 13
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 13
" Prey that can persist without extirpation, that remain small and vulnerable to predators throughout life, have high reproduction rates, produce large crops of offspring relative to their standing weight, exploit lower trophic levels, and have short spans of life that turnover the population are what I would consider "ideal" for this purpose."

I like this. This is also one of the reasons I felt the Red shiner would fit well. They seldom achieve a size larger than 3" but have the same body mass as a slightly larger GSH without the potential of outgrowing the predator and turning the table as GSH do.
I have many thoughts on this but am enjoying the reading too much at this point. :-))


I Subscribe!
1 member likes this: CityDad
Re: Questions and Feedback on SMB
jpsdad #526167 09/21/20 10:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 400
Likes: 11
4
Offline
4
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 400
Likes: 11
What Snipe just posted in his last sentence!! +1

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
bucky coplien, Mike M, Muleshoe, RichardMancini, teehjaeh57
Recent Posts
Stocking Trout in my Accidental Bass Pond
by anthropic - 10/26/20 06:00 PM
Happy Birthday Teehjaeh!
by Sunil - 10/26/20 05:36 PM
Pond Builder Scammed Me
by Steve_ - 10/26/20 04:08 PM
New member/ city kid
by CityDad - 10/26/20 03:04 PM
Winter Trout Stocking
by Fyfer123 - 10/26/20 03:00 PM
Feeding baby RES
by Pat Williamson - 10/26/20 02:20 PM
Sotcking from DNR in Georgia
by CityDad - 10/26/20 01:06 PM
My front yard cow pond
by Augie - 10/26/20 01:01 PM
Fish holding capacity
by ewest - 10/26/20 12:32 PM
First pond - what should I know?
by Ohriverrat - 10/26/20 11:41 AM
What did you do at your pond today?
by Zep - 10/26/20 10:37 AM
Hello from Oklahoma
by BAK - 10/26/20 10:25 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Mneagle2
Mneagle2
by Michael37090, October 21
Cloud Pond
Cloud Pond
by yucky, October 16
Bass colors
Bass colors
by woodster, October 7
1 Year Old Pond
1 Year Old Pond
by KW35, September 15
Our Pond Dredging Rehab Progress
Our Pond Dredging Rehab Progress
by Lori, September 6

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4