Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,899
Posts557,050
Members18,451
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,407
ewest 21,474
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
2 members (Rainman, Bobbss), 284 guests, and 147 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
T
OP Offline
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
I am planning a 1.5 acre dugout pond. It will be in almost perfect clay so it will hold water well, but runoff from the surrounding area is limited so the pond will mostly be kept full with a 60GPM well when needed. As a result I will have limited outflow.

I plan to circulate the water with both 1) bottom aeration for vertical movement and 2) a series of airlift pumps + a stream for 100,000 GPH of horizontal movement. As a result the water should be flowing around the pond constantly.

I'm wondering what people think is the best way to remove nutrients from a dugout with minimal outflow. My stream should act almost like a really big pool skimmer, so perhaps just pulling organic matter (ie FA) to this point and removing it should be enough.

But I'm wondering if there are any other ideas people have that can be an efficient way to remove nutrients. What do you think?

Ted

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
I'm confused. You said it will hold water well, but will have minimal outflow. Once it's full, then the input from the stream should almost equal the output if it is sealed as well as you say.

Personally? I wouldn't want the stream going into the pond as you have no control over what it brings to your pond besides water.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
T
OP Offline
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
Sorry esshup, I can see the confusion. There is no inflow into the pond other than a small amount of runoff (perhaps 2 acres of land) and the well pump. The stream I’m referring to will be man made, which will pump water from one end of the pond back to the other end of the pond, creating a constant horizontal circulation. So it won’t create any inflow/outflow, just circulation.

Part of my hope is that this stream will act as a large skimmer, allowing me to manually remove some nutrients by collecting and removing organic matter that is pulled into the stream.

I’m wondering if there are any other strategies that people have used to collect and remove nutrients from dugouts, other than big excavations. Perhaps bacteria could help, although it seems like nutrients would still stay “in the system”. Or perhaps keeping the well pump running will be necessary so that some nutrient rich water is constantly being flushed, although the energy requirements don’t seem ideal.

Last edited by ted_1209; 08/24/20 07:30 AM.
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 144
Likes: 1
F
Offline
F
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 144
Likes: 1
check out floating islands, the plants use up some of those nutrients


half-acre pond, LMB, HBG, BG, GSH and CC ....goal is to
have fun fishing. And I subscribe!
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,938
Likes: 268
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,938
Likes: 268
Originally Posted by ted_1209
The stream I’m referring to will be man made, which will pump water from one end of the pond back to the other end of the pond, creating a constant horizontal circulation. So it won’t create any inflow/outflow, just circulation.

Aaron Matos used/uses an artificial stream, with water pumped from his pond that eventually flows back into it, to run the water through artificial "wetlands" and (IIRC) filters to remove nutrients. And he had a whole great bunch of nutrients - he and Bruce Condello took an incredible poundage of fish out of Aaron's 1/10 acre pond after it was maybe 3 years old.

Aaron managed to have good enough water quality to have SMB in Arizona. Bob Lusk always says that "the fish live in only 10% of a pond; Aaron found a way to just have that 10%.

You can probably search and find posts on that pond here on the forum, and there was an article on it in PBMag a few years ago.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,213
Likes: 512
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,213
Likes: 512
If your temps are high enough, water hyacinths will utilize a large amount of nutrients and can be kept quarantined with a floating border. I started with 8 plants last summer and pulled literally thousands of the floating plants out after the first freeze. I had several blooms but nothing came back this year so I know my winters are way too cold so I'm sure your winters would ensure that as well.
The situation Theo is referring to is a very cool wetland project I've read the history on and the key is having "X" volume of water in a semi-static state that allows plant to slowly remove the nutrient load but it's a continuous yet slow process that requires multiple parts. One to remove nutrients and another to trap unusable sediments. Very well thought out deal, wish I had the brains to build something similar.

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,878
Likes: 278
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,878
Likes: 278
Ted,

Given your location, there seems to be a possible opportunity with wild rice as your wetland vegetation. In such a case, you could also a have a crop ... kind of like outdoor hydroponics.

Snipe brings up a good point. The flow doesn't need to be large. Maybe 1/10 to 1/20 the pond volume daily or possibly less even. There are two very efficient ways to move water at low hydrostatic head. One is a paddle wheel while the other is aeration that pulls water through conduit. In the latter, the wetland is where the diffuser would be located. A paddlewheel could be located at the entrance or exit of the wetland. A paddlewheel could slowly rotate like a mill wheel or paddleboat wheel does. A paddlewheel aerator would make a lot of noise.

With aeration, you could lift the water a modest amount, say 6 to 12 inches. In this case the wetland could flow to the pond over a waterfall or some type of cascade for visual and audio appeal. Just some ideas ... when you put your project together please share with us here at the forum. Myself, Snipe, and many others are interested in what you create

Last edited by jpsdad; 08/25/20 01:21 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
T
OP Offline
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
Thank you for all for your thoughts and ideas. Jpsdad that’s my thought, to use aeration in a conduit to move water. My research suggests that a 1.3 hp regenerative blower pumping 3 cfm of air 40” deep into each of twenty seven 4” pvc pipes will move the most water per watt, over 100k gph when added together. These pipes will go through a concrete wall, forcing the water to circulate through the steam and back around the pond. I’m tentatively calling it “the bubble wall”. This should allow me to efficiently pull water into the stream, where it will then circulate around.

I dug a test pond 4 years ago, a circular pond about 80 feet across with 2:1 sides down to 15 feet. It was relatively algae free last year but this year has quite a bit of algae that has broken off and is floating around. I assume that’s a result of the build up of nutrients over time.

Part of my thinking is that the stream will act like a big skimmer, where I can pull in any floating algae or other organic debris and easily remove it. Part of my thinking is around what else I can do to remove nutrients. The stream and pond will have plants, but the water in the stream should be fairly fast flowing, perhaps 0.3 to 0.4 FPS. Perhaps supplemental bacteria can help? I’m going to try that in my test pond and see how effective it is.

Re: Aaron I did a quick search but couldn’t find any posts yet. I will keep looking. If anyone has any links that would be appreciated. Sounds like a similar thought process and design.

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,938
Likes: 268
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 13,938
Likes: 268
Aaron's user name is "AaronM". You can pull him up through the "Member List" tab and sort through his posts (there were only 325 of them, a very small number for someone with such a revolutionary approach).


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,878
Likes: 278
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,878
Likes: 278
Here one of Aarons threads http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=240409

Here is his profile: https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=3055

Ted, I would think that size blower might make a lot of noise. Not a problem if you know this and are prepared for it.

Last edited by jpsdad; 08/26/20 09:50 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
T
OP Offline
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
Thank you both. Re: the noise on the blower, it is a good point. I plan to put it in a garage at the far corner of the property, so hopefully we won't hear it.

Re: Aaron I went through his threads. It was interesting to see that he used a modified Aquascape system. I've spent quite a lot of time learning about those over the years. Parts of my current design are based on their system, with a couple modifications to hopefully fix some of the complaints I've read.

For those interested in how Aquascape generally designs their system I find this video to be a pretty good overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRuHEH_iBH4

The project that I found most similar to what I'm planning is this one, just with a stream instead of a waterfall. This is where I got the idea of adding a weir to the start of my stream to act like a big skimmer. It feels like it should be relatively effective https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_xqDxfXnmA

I also noted that in this video they recommend the use of beneficial bacteria, so I am going to try that as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMKyuQVbAew

The draw backs I've heard with Aquascape are 1) the wetland filters can become clogged and anaerobic as sediment and organic material quickly fills the gaps between the gravel 2) you have to frequently clean the pump filters and 3) the pumps use a lot of energy. This is why my plan is to use a series of airlift pumps + stream instead of water pumps + a waterfall. This way there is no filter to clean (just the air filter on the blower once a year), the energy usage is much lower, and nothing gets clogged. Also the lack of a waterfall and wetland filter will hopefully be a big cost saver. Now it is just a big clay whole with a concrete wall, some PVC pipes, and a blower in one corner. That said it is all still a work in progress, which is why I appreciate the feedback of this forum.

What do you all think of this? Any concerns or things that jump out?

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,878
Likes: 278
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,878
Likes: 278
Ted,

Sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this and I think you are on a good track with your project as it relates to your stated goals. I like the idea of moving water to wetland without filtering first. Like you, I think this requires less maintenance and energy. In the end, that equals cost savings and more enjoyment.

It's similar, very much so actually, to some thoughts I've had but I think I was going a bit different direction with it (thinking about how one could make stream for the stream's sake using a high volume blower).

For a tiny pond project I've been contemplating (1/8 acre), after some thought, I decided the best solution for my purposes would be less water movement. My interest in the wetland filter had more to do with wanting a wetland for amphibians and a forage reserve that would exclude predators and that would also provide some water feature as well. Some do this to make the water quality good enough for swimming ... that's pretty cool too.

There are a number of ways to deal with nutrients and this is a very good way do that.

Lately I've been researching ways to do this with organisms, particularly with macro-organisms that can meaningfully contributed to the food web. Harvested fish in this case represent sequestered nutrients that flow out of the pond ecosystem. I think a really good balance of organisms along with harvest may go a considerable distance in controlling nutrient buildup and eutrophication.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
T
OP Offline
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
That's cool jpsdad. That's a good point about harvested fish as another way to remove nutrients.

So right now we can remove nutrients by:

1. Water replacement (perhaps remove water to irrigate plants, replace with well. Seems pretty expensive energy wise)
2. Fish removal
3. Organic removal (floating into big skimmer where it is removed)

The other potential option is beneficial bacteria. Does anyone know how well that works? How do the nutrients actually exit the system?

Any other options being missed?

Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 517
Likes: 38
Offline
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 517
Likes: 38
I'd say marginal plants help to remove nutrients from the water as well.


"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." - Donny Miller
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
If you can make a shallow wetland and have the water flow through that, the plants will remove a lot of the nutrients. People that make natural swimming pools have a wetland the same size as the pool remove the nutrients, and the water quality in the swimming pools is like the water quality in the swimming pools that use chlorine and filters. The downside to that is the area needed for the wetland and how to move water through it, but with using the air lifts like you describe that should work well.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
1 member likes this: jpsdad
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,878
Likes: 278
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,878
Likes: 278
Originally Posted by ted_1209
So right now we can remove nutrients by:

1. Water replacement (perhaps remove water to irrigate plants, replace with well. Seems pretty expensive energy wise)
2. Fish removal
3. Organic removal (floating into big skimmer where it is removed)

The other potential option is beneficial bacteria. Does anyone know how well that works? How do the nutrients actually exit the system?

Any other options being missed?

It may be of interest to some that there are desert playas that ephemerally occur in clay basins that support a remarkable biomass of organisms on a per unit area basis. What makes the biomass remarkable is that there is practically no photosynthesis taking place due to the extreme muddiness of the water. This is supported by evidence where chlorophyll is quantified. What supports these food webs are bacteria and fungi that break down organic detritus that accumulate in these pans. So these base materials are the result of photosynthesis that took place elsewhere and they find their way into the pans by being wind blown and by deposition of dung by higher life forms. So bacteria and fungi are primary detritivores that can support more complex organisms.

If one is paying attention to Bill Cody's posts regarding the use of copper based algaecides, he will notice that Bill warns of killing the benthos community as they accumulate in the sediment. The benthos community, which is responsible to recycle organics accumulating on the pond bottom, is a critical player in your pond's food web. I would go as far as to say that it is an indicator of the health of a pond. Since they live in and near the sediments and derive their living from the organics in the sediments, they are particularly sensitive to conditions there.

I may receive some criticism for this, but IMHO the use of fish feed on a perpetual and ongoing basis is a primary source of nutrient overloading in many recreational ponds. Ted, in your proposed 1 1/4 acre pond, which drains 2 acres, most of the nutrients will come from the soil and the well you will be filling it with. Unless you feed or fertilize, the well water, nitrogen fixing cyanobacteria, and bird wastes will be the primary sources of increasing nutrient load. It is doubtful, that you will have any problem with excessive nutrients for many years ... unless ... you put them in your pond by other means like feeding and/or fertilization.

Once nutrients become a real problem I question whether continuation of feeding is in the best interest of the pond owner. The problem, when one thinks about it, is nature's response to excessive nutrients. What could be better than nature's response? Some might say dye and herbicide so you can continue feeding. But for me, the answer is curtailment of deliberate nutrient inputs or at least natural solutions like wetland filters that Ted proposes. IMHO there is risk to take more food away from the pond's food web by using dyes and herbicides than can be gained by feed. Isn't it a non sequitur that one must add nutrients (feed) to a pond with excessive nutrients (excess ability to produce food)? It's worth considering other options for managing the problem of excessive nutrients.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


1 member likes this: 4CornersPuddle
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,407
Likes: 788
jpsdad, don't forget any organics that blow into the pond, leaves, grass clippings, pollen, etc. Especially leaves.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,878
Likes: 278
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 1,878
Likes: 278
Originally Posted by esshup
jpsdad, don't forget any organics that blow into the pond, leaves, grass clippings, pollen, etc. Especially leaves.

Yes, indeed.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
T
OP Offline
T
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
Good point esshup and Steve. Instead of one big wetland my plan is to spread out the plants along the banks of the 400’ long stream that takes water from one end of the pond and returns it back to the other end of the pond. Hopefully that is just as effective as one big wetland.

Jpsdad I think you bring up a good point about fertilizing/ feeding. Those are big sources of nutrients. I don’t plan to fertilize but may end up feeding. I’m not sure yet. What I’m hoping to achieve is a pond that can “process” as many nutrients as possible, so that I have the flexibility to feed if I want to down the road.

Good point esshup about the organics. This is why I think a “skimmer” is so important: something to pull all that organic material to one spot where it can be easily removed. This is a big part of the purpose of the stream. Aquascape does something similar, although I’m hoping my solution of using airlift pumps can be quite a bit cheaper and easier to build, operate, and maintain. We will see!

Speaking of, I saw Aaron Matos was referenced in the recent July/Aug issue. It looks like he hasn’t been on the forums for a while though. Does anyone have a way to contact him? I’d love to hear about his learnings and what he thinks of the above design.

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 4
Offline
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 4
Thanks a lot for sharing. I just needed it. In general, for a long time, I started to pay attention to what I eat because I understood that this matters a lot and that what we eat defines the state of our organism. I started to like the products from healthcanal.com a lot because they have exceptional content and elements that the body needs to function to the maximum. Has anyone here tried them?

Last edited by Brilan; 02/16/21 05:05 AM.

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by Rainman - 03/28/24 02:53 AM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by Mark Dyer - 03/27/24 10:18 PM
Reducing fish biomass
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:17 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:05 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:02 PM
Questions and Feedback on SMB
by Donatello - 03/27/24 03:10 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by Bill Cody - 03/27/24 10:18 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by esshup - 03/27/24 08:47 AM
2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/27/24 08:15 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by esshup - 03/26/24 10:00 PM
Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
by esshup - 03/26/24 09:47 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5