Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
AMW, DoubleDigit, plkmjhuy, lanebj18, ShusSX
16899 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics38,277
Posts519,175
Members16,900
Most Online3,583
Jan 15th, 2020
Top Posters
esshup 24,500
ewest 20,317
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 13,451
Who's Online Now
7 members (RStringer, Bobbss, anthropic, codyroad, Dave Davidson1, nvcdl, highflyer), 254 guests, and 432 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524630 08/12/20 02:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 893
Likes: 2
O
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
O
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 893
Likes: 2
I am sorry to hear about the bad news. Here is take home message, in my opinion.

Diffused air systems are not all they are hyped up to be. Many of my clients have had fish kills even with diffused air systems in place. Many have killed their fish by creating turn-over. Once you get these systems going, don't use a timer, run em 24/7 through the growing season.

Pond more than 10' deep? Run a surface aerator in addition to the diffused air system.

Pond less than 10' deep? Run a good surface aerator and forget about diffused air.

Nothing can take the place of a good surface aerator. If you have lots of pondweeds then stay away from units with a bottom screen that may get clogged up and require lots of maintenance.

This advise is for Tracy direct: Get yourself a 2HP paddlewheel from AES for $1321 and be done with it for good:

https://pentairaes.com/paddlewheel-aerators-for-aquaculture-waste-water.html

Get an extra replacement motor just in case, so you'll have it when you need it.

Those don't come with power cable, so you need to supply that yourself. You will be off the races, and hopefully won't have to worry about this happening again.

It sure is frustrating to watch as an industry steers pond owners towards towards ineffective, high maintenance, and expensive products, while there are more efficient and effective solutions hidden in plain sight.

Last edited by overtonfisheries; 08/12/20 03:12 PM.

It's ALL about the fish!
2 members like this: esshup, FayetteTX
Re: My first fish kill
overtonfisheries #524634 08/12/20 02:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 253
Likes: 4
Offline
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 253
Likes: 4
Quote
Diffused air systems are not all they are hyped up to be.

This topic is probably the most controversial one I've seen on here, and everyone has a different opinion on it, largely in part due to the fact that it's all we have: opinions. There is no hard science to actually show what diffused air does for your BoW. There are too many variables: water temperature, air temperature, pond depth, biomass, access to wind, what type of water source you have, what species you have, access to electricity, etc, etc. MOST people on here say that aeration is better, not only to provide more DO, but to help with the overall breakdown of "bad stuff" in your pond. Some experts on here say that adding aeration allows your BoW to hold more fish, but as we've seen by this post, adding more fish or allowing your biomass to get really high can have deadly consequences, with or without aeration. It's a risk vs reward scenario, and I think that you are right when it comes to surface aeration, because there's virtually no risk in doing that, and you get a lot of the benefits of diffused air.

After reading a LOT of the aeration topics on this forum, it's been drilled into our brains to aerate, aerate, aerate, but, like you said, I don't think it's as hyped up as it should be. I'm in the process of receiving quotes for a 1/2 to 3/4 acre pond on my property and I think you've convinced me to just stick with surface aeration.

Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524636 08/12/20 03:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 893
Likes: 2
O
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
O
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 893
Likes: 2
But there is some hard science. There is a SAE value for aerators. This is a measurement is pounds of oxygen per horsepower per hour of operation. The Standard Aeration Efficiency (SAE) is approximately 4.1 on the paddlewheel models from AES.

Kasco surface aerators have SAE values of 2.6-3.2

Kasco fountains have SAE values of 1.5-2.5

But bottom diffused air systems? Any SAE value? I don't see any posted.

Add to this, the fact that paddlewheels create a good amount of current. I struggle to swim against the current of my 2hp units. They displace a great deal of water.


p.s. I stand corrected. Kasco reports diffused air SAE as 1.0-4.0. From my experience, I expect it it to be towards the low end of that range, and dependent on lots of factors.

Last edited by overtonfisheries; 08/12/20 03:18 PM.

It's ALL about the fish!
Re: My first fish kill
overtonfisheries #524638 08/12/20 03:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 253
Likes: 4
Offline
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 253
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by overtonfisheries
But there is some hard science. There is a SAE value for aerators. This is a measurement is pounds of oxygen per horsepower per hour of operation. The Standard Aeration Efficiency (SAE) is approximately 4.1 on the paddlewheel models from AES.

Kasco surface aerators have SAE values of 2.6-3.2

Kasco fountains have SAE values of 1.5-2.5

But bottom diffused air systems? Any SAE value? I don't see any posted.

Add to this, the fact that paddlewheels create a good amount of current. I struggle to swim against the current of my 2hp units. They displace a great deal of water.

Great information. What I meant by hard science was when to use it, how long to run it, what temps to run it in, stuff like that. There isn't one right answer, but many wrong answers. I'm surprised at the effectiveness of fountains. Most people on here say that they do little to nothing for your pond, other than provide aesthetics, but their SAE values aren't too shabby. Gives me more to think about.

Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524640 08/12/20 03:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
Todd, THANKS for the information.. As I stated earlier in this thread, I have not seen a single hatchery that has diffused air. I also said I was not all that impressed with diffused air even after running it for 4 and a half years and checking DO and TEMPS. It might and I say might help the water clean up a little. And I have seen diffused air raise DO at the bottom of my pond but it went from 1.5 to 3.0 and 3.0 on the ponds bottom with 92 degree water temps are not all that impressive, or that's the way I feel about it anyway. Every hatchery pond I have seen runs surface aeriation. At your place all I have ever seen were Paddle wheels. I've herd it said here, You will kill some fish during the learning curve growing fish in a pond. Ok, I can now say Been there Done that. Time to move on and do it right this time.

Last edited by TGW1; 08/12/20 03:50 PM.

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524641 08/12/20 04:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 6
Online Happy
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 6
Tracy, how much energy do you want/need? Do you want to run the paddlewheel during the day, the night, or both?


Brian

The one thing is the one thing
A dry fly catches no fish
Try not to be THAT 10%
Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524643 08/12/20 04:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 6
Online Happy
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 6
Todd,

For Tracy's three acre pond, how many HP paddlewheel does he need?


Brian

The one thing is the one thing
A dry fly catches no fish
Try not to be THAT 10%
Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524644 08/12/20 04:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
Hay Brian, I am guessing 24/7 during our worst time of the year.


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524645 08/12/20 04:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
Brian, lets hope only one 2 hp wheel lol


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524646 08/12/20 05:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 6
Online Happy
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 6
Let's see, 2HP, that's 1500watts nominal, or 1.5kW continuous, that's 36 kWh per day, at 48 volts DC thats 720 AHs from the system, so to never fall below 60% SOC, your battery bank needs to be 1800 AH's which means a small fortune in batteries, then there is the panels, to produce 36 kWh you'll need 18 350 watt panels, two masts, and all the fixins.

Let's see if we can do this with less power. OR...


Brian

The one thing is the one thing
A dry fly catches no fish
Try not to be THAT 10%
Re: My first fish kill
highflyer #524647 08/12/20 07:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 253
Likes: 4
Offline
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 253
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by highflyer
that's 36 kWh per day.


Ouch, that's 1080 kWh per month. Average monthly power usage in the United States is around 900 kWh per month, so you're looking at doubling your electric bill, if you can't use solar.

Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524659 08/13/20 10:11 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,317
Likes: 20
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,317
Likes: 20
There is a reason CC farms and hatcheries use paddlewheel systems. They move a lot of air into the surface (top 2-3 feet) water quickly. They are not whole pond (all depths) systems. Each type of system has its pluses and minuses - learn them and use what meets your goals. If you are running at a high carrying capacity then you need emergency aeration - like a paddlewheel type system.

See this for info - unbiased.

https://srac.tamu.edu/fact-sheets/serve/292

Last edited by ewest; 08/13/20 10:16 AM.















Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524662 08/13/20 10:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 893
Likes: 2
O
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
O
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 893
Likes: 2
Fish farms and hatcheries use paddlewheel because THEY WORK, plus they are efficient. They circulate oxygenated water deeper than the top 2-3 feet, my best guess down to 6-8 feet. If you have a good paddlewheel, and run it 24/7 during growing season, then you will likely be saved from a fish kill even if your pond or lake suffers from turn-over or plankton crash. However, the diffused air systems won't do squat for you during an emergency. Your pond can suffer oxygen depletion regardless of fish capacity. My advise is for Tracy, based on experience. A 2 HP should be enough to handle the 3 acres, as long as you continue to run the diffused air also.


It's ALL about the fish!
Re: My first fish kill
Steve_ #524693 08/14/20 06:33 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
Originally Posted by Steve_
Originally Posted by highflyer
that's 36 kWh per day.


Ouch, that's 1080 kWh per month. Average monthly power usage in the United States is around 900 kWh per month, so you're looking at doubling your electric bill, if you can't use solar.

Steve, the reason why I'm interested in the solar is for exactly what you brought up. Elec Co Ops are expensive when it comes to electric bills. I also understand that A good hatchery, like Overton's should make enough to cover electrical expenses where a private pond owner may not be able to justify the expense. But on the other hand if you want a 3 acre pond that will support more than a couple of double digit lmb the cost to do so is not cheap. And a fish kill will cost you some money also. Considering what it cost to grow out some DD lmb. You are looking at the price of the lmb genetics, forage fish, grass carp, herbicides, daily supplemental feeding the forage fish, shock surveys, aeration and time and labor (effort) just to mention a few cost and if you want to do this in a short period of time, there will be supplemental forage fish stocking, or the cost for a forage fish pond with more supplemental feeding. Hobbies are not cheap!


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
1 member likes this: Steve_
Re: My first fish kill
ewest #524780 08/17/20 07:11 AM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,243
Likes: 13
W
Offline
W
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,243
Likes: 13
Originally Posted by ewest
There is a reason CC farms and hatcheries use paddlewheel systems. They move a lot of air into the surface (top 2-3 feet) water quickly. They are not whole pond (all depths) systems. Each type of system has its pluses and minuses - learn them and use what meets your goals. If you are running at a high carrying capacity then you need emergency aeration - like a paddlewheel type system.

See this for info - unbiased.

https://srac.tamu.edu/fact-sheets/serve/292


Ewest

That was a VERY interesting read. Pretty much proves it IS more efficient to aerate at night versus daytime. Also interesting that running diffusers in deeper water allows more of the O2 from the bubbles to be absorbed into the water. We hear so much "the bubbles don't provide the air, the atmosphere does". Lots of good stuff in there. I am going to have to read it again.

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 08/17/20 07:14 AM.

Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524815 08/17/20 03:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
I wished I had learned more about aeration during my first year of the pond. Had I learned that Diffused air did little to improve DO a pond that was 15' or shallower I would have selected a paddlewheel over the diffused air. My pond depths is at 12' but not during the summer months, it's closer to 10 or 11' during that time of year. I would be willing to bet that majority of the lakes in Texas and Louisiana are shallower than the 15' depths. As I stated earlier in this thread prior to adding diffused aeriation my DO on or at the ponds bottom was 1.5ppm and after diffused aeration it was 3ppm both of these numbers were classified as critical in this report in a catfish pond. And most of us know a catfish can live on dry land for quite awhile where other Predator fish will not and that alone tells me they require less O2. I could have saved the money used on the diffused aeration system. But since I already have it then a combination of the paddlewheel with existing system may work when aeration is really needed in a pond larger than one acre.


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524819 08/17/20 05:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,243
Likes: 13
W
Offline
W
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,243
Likes: 13
Tracy - it would be very interesting if you were able to run some experiments since you will have both. Maybe run just the paddlewheel and see what the DO profile looks like. Then paddle wheel plus diffused, etc.

From what I have seen you'd be the only guy pumping out that kind of information.


Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524838 08/18/20 06:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,492
Likes: 4
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,492
Likes: 4
I do think there are some distinct advantages to horizontal aeration vs. vertical aeration.



Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524839 08/18/20 06:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
WBJ, I don't have a paddlewheel right now but with Brian's assistance maybe I can get one up and running. Spending my kids and grandkids inheritance. I have seen the paddle wheels @ Overton's and they will move some water. So, I'm with Shorty on this one.

I cut my feeding back a little, thought that might help out some because of the hot water and I saw some really nice cnbg in the 9" or larger size and saw a nice lmb moving through the same area. My numbers of decent sized lmb are down but seems like i did have some of those survive the fish kill. So, right now I am keeping an eye out for good numbers of forage sized cnbg.


Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Re: My first fish kill
ewest #524845 08/18/20 08:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 398
Likes: 11
4
Offline
4
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 398
Likes: 11
ewest, thanks for posting this link to SRAC aeration article. Good stuff.

Re: My first fish kill
Shorty #524858 08/18/20 10:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,243
Likes: 13
W
Offline
W
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,243
Likes: 13
Originally Posted by Shorty
I do think there are some distinct advantages to horizontal aeration vs. vertical aeration.

I would hazard a guess that, like any tool, there are distinct advantages to each depending on what problem you are trying to solve in your specific BOW.


Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524860 08/18/20 11:25 AM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 6
Online Happy
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,004
Likes: 6
Does anyone know how many "pounds of O2" per part per million per acre-foot of water? If I can get that number, then I will know if I can "make it work" for Tracy.

Basic math is this:

Three acre feet of water on the surface. Paddle wheels add 4.5 to 5.5 pounds of O2 per HP per hour. So that is easy enough to calculate what one HP running for 10 hours would add. If that is enough to add say 3-4 PPM to those three acre feet of water, then Tracy is in with solar, but it won't be cheep, but it will be worth it.

So calling all smart people with lots of information to comb through!!! Please validate or correct my math below.

What I have found is 1PPM per million gallons of water equals 8.345 pounds. If that holds for O2, then in three acre-feet of water to raise the O2 4ppm Tracy needs to add about 33.334 pounds of oxygen per night and that is doable with a one HP paddle wheel in eight hours of running. If I am right, in ten hours of running Tracy should be able to add 45- 55 pounds of O2 which should solve his O2 issue easily. Now back to vacation....


Brian

The one thing is the one thing
A dry fly catches no fish
Try not to be THAT 10%
Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524861 08/18/20 12:53 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,358
Likes: 4
Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,358
Likes: 4
Here's a great old thread with George and HF:

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=416416

Re: My first fish kill
TGW1 #524875 08/18/20 03:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
T
TGW1 Offline OP
OP Offline
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,422
Likes: 18
It is a good thread, with some valuable information. Todd Overton recommended the aeration system for Georges pond. Todd has also made recommendations for my pond.

In looking back. the main problem at my pond was due to excess vegetation and several cloudy rainy days. I don't plan on going back there with all that vegetation but I did not plan on going there in the first place. My attempt here was to inform as many people as possible on what I experienced and maybe come up with a solution as to how to overcome that situation should it ever happen again. In my conversation with Bob Lusk, he said " I bet the vegetation came on fast didn't it"? Yes it did!

Last edited by TGW1; 08/18/20 03:37 PM.

Do not judge me by the politicians in my City, State or Federal Government.


Tracy
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bones, daverwc, Martin Rollinson
Recent Posts
White fungus on small fish
by Dave Davidson1 - 10/23/20 07:01 PM
Pond Builder Scammed Me
by RAH - 10/23/20 05:10 PM
What did you do at your pond today?
by RStringer - 10/23/20 04:25 PM
Fish holding capacity
by jpsdad - 10/23/20 03:16 PM
Alternative forage ideas for Trophy LMB
by RAH - 10/23/20 01:27 PM
Homemade porcupine structure
by RStringer - 10/23/20 09:12 AM
Overflow pipe screen ideas
by FireIsHot - 10/23/20 06:37 AM
Need Advice - Daily Algae Cycle Large Pond
by yucky - 10/23/20 12:19 AM
Hybrid Channel / Blue Catfish
by ewest - 10/22/20 12:25 PM
Pond and Personnel Best
by R&R - 10/22/20 09:59 AM
Aeration for Fall and Winter
by Theo Gallus - 10/22/20 06:51 AM
ID Help on Tilapia.
by Snakebite - 10/21/20 04:49 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Mneagle2
Mneagle2
by Michael37090, October 21
Cloud Pond
Cloud Pond
by yucky, October 16
Bass colors
Bass colors
by woodster, October 7
1 Year Old Pond
1 Year Old Pond
by KW35, September 15
Our Pond Dredging Rehab Progress
Our Pond Dredging Rehab Progress
by Lori, September 6

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4