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#39068 12/04/04 07:02 PM
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Kelly, since Diazinon is no longer available, would you recommend an insecticide that would help control fireants around my pond?

#39069 12/04/04 08:39 PM
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Dudley - how ironic that you should ask.

DuPont just introduced a new fireant control product in September. ADVION represents an entirely new class of insecticide (Oxadiazine). The product's active ingredient (indoxacarb) exhibits toxicological characteristics never before achieved. The product (a bait) is virtually non-toxic until the fire ant workers feed it to the larvae. The active-ingredient is then metabolized in the larvae's gut, and is then released throughout the ant colony - killing the entire colony within hours (or 1-2 days tops).

I can assure you - IT WORKS! You can come back to this board and cuss my "girly name" if it doesn't - ha.

Here's a link to a related press release. ADVION Press Release

Let me know if you have any questions. KD

#39070 12/04/04 09:05 PM
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One more suggestion for fire ant control:

There's also another commercial-grade product called TOPCHOICE (I think there's a "retail version" in some stores).

TOPCHOICE is a granular fire ant insecticide that contains the active-ingredient "fipronil". Though not a bait, TOPCHOICE is designed for broadcast treatments to high foot-traffic areas (parks, golf courses, lawns, etc) where the need to eliminate the threat of fire ants justifies the "perceived" higher cost. Though it is slow to take effect (several weeks), its residual period often lasts up to 12 months. So, when I say "perceived higher cost", consider the extended length of control when evaluating the product's price.

Interesting footnotes: Fipronil is virtually non-toxic to vertebrates (it only affects insects at prescribed dosages). Also, if any of you are using a product called FRONTLINE to control fleas and ticks on your dogs, check that product's active-ingredient. Yep, its fipronil (a good example of its low toxicity toward animals).

#39071 12/05/04 12:02 AM
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Thanks so much for the great information, Kelly. I'll be looking for Advion and Topchoice as well as for Frontline. Incidentally, Kelly is a ligitimate guy's name down here (Kellie = female). I do have to admit that after reading and chuckling over the posts concerning the question of your gender, I did consider addressing my original post to Ms. Kelly. I decided against it when I figured that it was now getting just too well worn. That stuff is good only when the victim can't see it coming.

#39072 12/06/04 05:41 PM
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Very wise of you Mr. DoRight! \:D


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#39073 12/06/04 06:21 PM
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I heard a news clip last weekend about a naturally occuring virus that seems to hit fireants. Seems to get the whole nest. "They" are studying it now.

#39074 12/06/04 10:26 PM
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Many years ago, there was considerable research exerted toward an exotic tracheal mite, for which the imported red fire ant served as the primary host. The mite; and you can bet it was tiny, would reportedly parasitize the host-ant - causing the ant's death. I don't know whatever became of the mite. But, judging by the continued onslaught of fire ant, it hasn't been overly successful.

I do feel that the imported red fire ant has been a major cause of our seemingly reduced population of bobwhite quail and "horned toad" lizards Horned Toad (the later of which used to be seen everywhere in Texas when I was a kid). If anyone has ever seen a fire ant colony in defense-mode or feeding-mode, you can understand how ground-nesting birds could be easily be impacted by their presence.

#39075 12/06/04 10:48 PM
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I find it amazing that the young of any bird or animal survive the fireant. As children, we would frequently hear what my parents said were bobwhite and would flush them as we walked the fields. I've ridden my horse backwards over the property for the last three decades and have not seen even a feather.

#39076 12/06/04 10:54 PM
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Haven't seen Nell either. How I miss that girl!

#39077 12/11/04 12:46 PM
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I just discovered that Diazinon is still available to holders of private applicators permits, although I intend to try Advion (having a little difficulty finding Advion) before returning to Diazinon.
Also, I heard that some of the local rice farmers, who farm crawfish as a secondary crop, used fipronil in their rice fields and had no crawfish crop as a result. Since I have no first-hand knowledge of this, it should be regarded as unreliable.

#39078 12/11/04 03:52 PM
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Dudley - I'm not trying to scam any business off of this board, but my company does carry both products. Let me know if you're unable to locate any local sources.

As for the fipronil/crawfish issue, I will check into it. Crawfish are a crustacean - therefore they follow the invertebrate branch of the tree. I'll see what I can learn about this matter and let you know. KD

#39079 12/11/04 06:04 PM
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I subscribe to keeping business in the family as much as possible, Kelly, and it seems like being able to get Advion from you would save me a lot of time and frustration. I believe a 25 pound bag would serve me best. If you'll send me your address and a figure by e-mail, I'll get a check in the mail and provide you with a shipping address. Thank you so much, Kelly.
djlod@cox-internet.com

#39080 12/11/04 09:15 PM
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Not trying to be a wet blanket or anything just want to make sure the application near your pond will not cause problems for your fish crawfish etc... here is an excerpt from the ADVION MSDS.

Maybe Kelly can address the concentrations mentioned and shed some light.

JW

----------------------------------------------------------------------
ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ecotoxicological Information
AQUATIC TOXICITY:
96 hour LC50 - Bluegill sunfish: 0.90 mg/L.
Highly toxic.
96 hour LC50 - Rainbow trout: 0.65 mg/L.
Highly toxic.
48 hour EC50 - Daphnia magna: 0.60 mg/L.
Highly toxic.
AVIAN TOXICITY:
Acute Oral LD50 - Bobwhite Quail: 98 mg/kg.
Acute Dietary LC50 - Bobwhite Quail: 808 ppm.
Acute Dietary LC50 - Mallard Duck: > 5620 ppm
Ecotoxicological information is for DPX-MP062.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISPOSAL CONSIDERATIONS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Waste Disposal
Do not contaminate water, food, or feed by storage or
disposal. Wastes resulting from the use of this product
must be disposed of on site or at an approved waste
disposal facility.
Do not apply where/when conditions could favor runoff.
Cover, incorporate, or clean up granules that are spilled.
Do not apply directly to water, to areas where surface water
is present or to intertidal areas below the mean high water

#39081 12/11/04 11:05 PM
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Astute observations, J.W. The concentrations required to be lethal to 50% of those populations seem relatively high to me, but it might be that those concentrations could be easily reached. I think that Kelly will offer a realistic appraisal. Many, many thanks for your concern and input.

#39082 12/11/04 11:55 PM
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Dudley - your request is on-hold until this question is resolved.

My initial observation is that the Ecotox ratings were given for DPX-MP062, which (in mfgr jargon) refers to the technical active-ingredient (virtually undiluted); not the formulated product that is sold as ADVION (which only contains .045% active-ingredient).

Therefore, the ascribed MSDS tox-ratings are referring to an active-ingredient that is over 2000X the concentration of the marketed formulation (ADVION).

I will confirm this understanding with DuPont and post back next week, and also try to get their comments regarding the product's use near ponds or within watersheds.

#39083 12/17/04 02:31 PM
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My previous post was correct. DPX-MP062 is DuPont's designation for the "technical material" (undiluted product) INDOXACARB. This tech-material is 99.95% active-ingredient, whereas the formulated product sold as ADVION contains only .045% active-ingredient.

The DuPont representative with whom I spoke admitted that the MSDS is easily misunderstood, since it doesn't distinguish the significant difference between DPX-MP062 and ADVION. As a result, DuPont will likely amend the MSDS to more accurately define the ecotox data in relation to the formulated product.

Now then, I did a few extrapolations on the tech-material's ecotox figures. Considering that the tech-material is 2,200 times the concentration of the marketed formulation known as ADVION, the following should bear true.

NOTE: "96hr LC50" represents the concentration (given as milligrams per liter of water) that is required to cause 50% mortality (death) of the designated test population during a 4-day exposure period.

If the DPX-MP062 tech-material has a 96 hr LC50 of .90 mg/L for bluegill sunfish, this would correlate to approximately 5,087.76 lbs of ADVION per acre-foot of water.

I think the probability of reaching anywhere near this degree of ADVION contamination in a pond, through rainfall-runoff, is virtually impossible (physically or fiscally).

Due to ADVION's low level of toxicity, the EPA classifies it as "practically non-toxic".

For what its worth, if someone were to register water (H20) as a pesticide with the EPA, it would also receive a "practically non-toxic" designation - since consuming too much of it might have lethal effects (presumably preceded by a bladder explosion).

Despite the above indications, it is always a good practice to avoid any pesticide treatments where unneccessary contamination risks are obvious. For that reason, the ADVION label's verbiage that recommends avoiding run-off contamination is found on ALL pesticide labels.

I hope this post addresses some of the previously expressed concerns. Let me know if there are any questions.

#39084 12/17/04 09:14 PM
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Thanks, Kelly. No questions here.

#39085 12/19/04 05:43 PM
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Kelly,

Thanks for going the extra mile to get more information from DuPont on their product.

Regarding the MSDS, more information is not always good. Their oversight in listing the "technical material" in the ecotox section instead of the formulation's ecotox info is a stumble but not a fall. I am glad to hear that they are going to make some corrections.

I am still curious about the reference in the MSDS to (DPX-KN128 Active Ingredient) and then the different number reference to ecotox data for DPX-MP062? Also does DuPont have environmental persistance (half life) and water solubility information for ADVION?

I hope you do not take my posts as being anything more that rational caution. I do not have grudge against the use of lab developed chemicals for herbicide or pesticide use. I am very interested in trying ADVION in applications away from my pond and any run off areas.

Thanks again for your efforts and help in making us all smarter. That can only lead to things being safer as well.

cheers,

JW

#39086 12/19/04 06:30 PM
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Thanks Kelly!!

Dudley did you find a place anywhere near you that sells the stuff or did you settle your need with the aforementioned KD?

I have only begun to search here in central Mississippi.


John
#39087 12/19/04 08:10 PM
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JM, I stopped looking locally when Kelly told me that he could supply Advion. When the toxicity issue arose, Kelly rightly put my request to purchase from him on hold. I'm sure that he's up to his ears with work and the holidays, and I expect that I'll hear from him before long. If he thinks that my finding a local source would be to my significant advantage, I'm believe he'll advise me to do that. Would you like Kelly to contact you, JM?

#39088 12/19/04 11:58 PM
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JW - mfgrs generally conduct half-life and solubility test on active-ingredients, which provide the basis for quantifying the relative values for formulated products (of which there may be many).

With indoxacarb, the hydrolysis half-life in water is listed as >30 days@pH5, 38 days@pH-7 and 1 day@pH-9. Photohydrolysis half-life was 3.16 days @ pH-5. Aerobic soil degredation ranged from 4.5 - 117 days, while anaerobic soil degredation spanned from 12.8 - 402 days. Soil photolysis half-life was 139 days. Field dissipation half-life was 6-114 days. Water solubility is .2mg/l @ 25degC @ pH7.0

#39089 12/20/04 12:12 AM
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JM & Dudley: if so inclined, please check for a local dealer that handles products of this type. If unsuccessful, email me the business name and location of your preferred local dealer. I'll make sure that someone gets in touch with them to discuss the matter. I appreciate your interest in this products, but I'd prefer to avoid any insinuation of commercial motives.

#39090 12/20/04 09:42 PM
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Kelly,

 Quote:
I appreciate your interest in this products, but I'd prefer to avoid any insinuation of commercial motives.
There is always someone somewhere to provide a complaint, however if it happens here I think several of us will trash, bash, flame, & maim the perp.

I believe I speak for everyone Kelly in stating we appreciate all the info, sincere concern, & impressivly informed help you give on this site!

I don't need any fire ant control here in NC but will contact you when my pond is finshed & I need to purchase any other products you might carry.

Thanks for all your much needed advice!


Pond Boss Subscriber & Books Owner


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Ric
#39091 12/20/04 11:13 PM
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Well put, Ric; you certainly spoke for me.
Kelly, almost everyone has a code of behavior and I won't ask you to compromise yours. I will say this and then say no more: I would have considered doing business with you (however minute) truly a pleasure.

#39092 01/06/05 07:41 PM
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For anyone that has interest, DuPont just posted their revised MSDS for ADVION Fire Ant Bait in order to better convey the Ecotox data that it contains. Follow this link or simply view the copied info.

JW, they expressed their appreciation to you for making them aware of this area of potential confusion - as do I. KD

New ADVION MSDS

TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Animal Data
DuPont Advion Fire Ant Bait
Oral LD50: > 5000 mg/kg in rats
Dermal LD50: > 5000 mg/kg in rabbits
DuPont Advion Fire Ant Bait is not a skin or eye irritant, and is not a skin sensitizer in animal tests.
-----------------------------
ECOLOGICAL INFORMATION

DuPont Advion Fire Ant Bait contains 0.045% active ingredient [calculated as the active isomer DPX-KN128] and is labeled for a maximum single application rate of 1.5 lbs of Advion fire ant bait per acre [equivalent to 0.0007lbs active ingredient per acre]. Based on the Advion Fire Ant Bait application rate, and the laboratory test results conducted with a higher concentration technical material, the ecological toxicity risk potential is extremely low for aquatic and avian species when the product is applied according to label directions to control red imported fire ants.
Note that the following results are based on tests conducted under laboratory conditions using DPX-MP062 Technical as the test substance. The DPX-MP062 Technical used in the tests
contained 94.5% active ingredient in the form of the insecticidally active isomer DPX-KN128 and inactive isomer IN-KN127 in an approximately 75:25 ratio.
94.5% DPX-MP062
AQUATIC TOXICITY:
96 hour LC50 - Bluegill sunfish: 0.90 mg/L.
96 hour LC50 - Rainbow trout : 0.65 mg/L.
48 hour EC50 - Daphnia magna : 0.60 mg/L.
Based on the above results for fish and invertebrates, risk quotients [RQs] were < 0.002 and no levels of concern [LOCs] were exceeded.
AVIAN TOXICITY:
Acute Oral LD50 - Bobwhite Quail : 98 mg/kg.
Acute Dietary LC50 - Bobwhite Quail: 808 ppm
Acute Dietary LC50 - Mallard Duck : >5620 ppm
Based on the above results for birds, acute RQs were < 0.03 and chronic RQs were < 0.1, and no LOCs were exceeded.

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