Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions Septic system close to Pond

Ranger:

I understand your issue quite well. I'm in the enviro field, and know the risks...and that they are actually quite small, from any individual home. The reason most states are trying to do away with direct discharge septic systems is that, as they are quite common, the aggregate of the discharge is big. I think it's unfair to impose these restrictions retroactively...Iowa allows homes to be grandfathered. No large changes and you don't need to retrofit. Major work or bath additions and you need to go with a sand mound or similar. It's quite expensive, and beyond the means of many. That's why most don't even bother to tell the county officials when changes are made...

** UPDATE, 2 + years later **
It's just about the end of October, some 26 months after I presented this thread for consideration. I just spent the morning at the LNP project with a certified soil analyst, performing a perc test.
We walked out onto the building pad and he quizzes me where the septic field is going to be located. I quickly describe my grand plan for structures and then point out to the area of the building pad that ends at the edge of the pond. We talk a little and he asks me if this is undisturbed soil. I tell him it's fill from the pond construction. He decisively responds "you can't put a septic field into fill". To this I respond "that's not what the county health department told me 2 years ago"....and summarize my thorough inquisition with the county health department, and how I double checked by asking another source within the department. He says the state would likely take issue with their decision, but admits that counties can make judgement decisions that fly in the face of the state. I'm sure my sudden uneasiness was apparent. He agrees to take a quick core sample from the approx center of the target zone. As he prepares, he's asking me questions about how it was prepared. I tell him it was the silty loam processed with some clay within the pond basin. He asks how it was deposited. I tell him "with a rubber tired scraper" and asked him if that was an issue. He shakes his head and warns that it is very possible that it is packed too hard to be perc correctly. At this point, he has this core sampling probe set up and starts to push it into the ground. It is a 3/4" dia tube that is sharpened at the business end. The first 4" of the tube is totally intact. After and above that, 1/2 of the tube perimeter is cut away so you can see the soil plug as it pushes up along the tube body. The probe has 2 foot stands, like a pogo stick, that he jumps on to push it straight down into the soil. He goes in about 24" and pulls it out and looks it over and flicks it with his finger. He shows me the different layers of soils from laying it in as fill. He's not sounding very positive. About 12" down, theres a 1" length of blue clay, then back to processed clay/silt. It's not super consistent. He assures me that the best processed soils that are filled are easily identified. These soils are classic. He pushes the probe back into the same hole and pulls up the handle, extending a wratchet mechanism to allow continuing deeper into the same hole. He's really jumping on it now, then it slides in kinda easy for 6 more inches, then he's gotta jump on it again. He pulls it out, shaking his head. He tells me that it isn't gonna matter whether the state would approve of putting septic field in fill or not....this area won't work anyway. I start to do a controlled adult whine. It doesn't work; he won't budge. He assures me that putting a septic field in this soil would be a catastrophy, probably failing within a year and spilling into the pond. The soils would refuse correct absorbtion and the effluent would move laterally. Fuggedaboutit.
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CRAP! (how apropos, eh?)
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Now, sensing I need a little calming assurance and assistance, he starts to look around for options. I already know "plan B", but refused to consider it necessary....until now. Yep, we're gonna have to pump it somewhere else. Yep, out to my field to the east.
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Well, I'm feelin' kinda sick as I take him thru the woods and out to the field. My whine has now shifted to unanticipated costs and the work to clear the timber to make this work. He stops and explains that this is not a huge change in the program, but will include a little more equipment and related cost. He says that instead of putting the septic tank out in front of the house, on the pond side, we will put the tank behind the house, on the field side. A second, smaller tank with a pump is right next to (and after) the main tank. The effluent fluid that would normally leave the main tank and head for the field will take a slight detour. They go into the pump tank. A 2" or 3" pipe (he was unsure on the size) runs from this pump tank and thru the woods to the off-site septic field. In our case, this is uphill...that's why a pump would be required. He thinks the collateral damage to the woods is minimal since it's just a pipe trenched in to carry the fluids to my field.
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Now....the blessing and silver lining. All is not lost...
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OK, this still sucks, but it's not sounding like a catastrophe. he continues to try to calm me, reassuring that this is no biggie. OK...OK...now I gotta go thru this one more time in the new field.
We get out there and he stands and looks. He quizzes me on the property lines and (for the first time) starts to sound positive. He likes the topography, finding nothing wrong with the field. Then he walks to the closest, likely area to put in a septic field....an area just past the tree line and heading east into the field. As good a place as I could hope, considering my recent loss of "Plan A". OK, it's probe time.
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Now, I gotta tell ya, I'm nervous now. You see, I have drilled post holes in a field at the the other end of this property and the soil findings were unbelieveably hard clay. The augur goes thru the top 10" of silty loam and would hit rock hard clay. This is all I can think of as he sets the probe onto the soil and climbs up on the foot pedals (that second cup of coffee this morning has become a mistake as I wait for him to hit a brick wall at 10" deep)...
It never happens. In fact, it's slipping into the soil consistently and without alot of jumping on the foot pegs. He pulls out the first 24" long plug, turns the probe horizontal and flicks at the plug along the sample length. He shows me difference from the first sample; the loamy and consistent texture of the plug. He is pleased....I guess I am too. He pushes the probe back in for another 2 footer. He says that we are now down to 48" and pulls it out. He looks at the sample and notes that we have probably hit the impervious layer. He reaches into his pocket and pulls out a small bottle of clear liquid. It's hydrochloric acid and he puts a few drops on the end of the plug (the deepest sample on the probe) and says that it should fizz. He says that the carbonate in the soils will react with the HCL; carbonate created by the water that hits this zone and can no longer permeate. No fizz. He is pleasantly surprised and says this is good, indicating that we still have percolation at 48" deep. He assures me that this is definitely where we want our septic field....I tell him to do the complete test.
He takes 3 samples, spaced apart about 60'. The center sample is done with an augur that pulls up a sample about 4" in diameter. He lays the augur sample on the ground for examination and to show me the good news. I stare at this larger plug, crumbled and stretched out on the ground and ask him to put it in layman's terms. I tell him that I am very familiar with the 1 - 10 scale, where 10 is the best. He quickly replies that we are a 7 and have no worries.
He completes the test by sketching a map using a nearby property marker, documenting a couple of GPS coordinates, and asks me where he should send the $225 invoice.

That's just a crappy subject to begin with, Brettski.

I'm glad plan B worked...at least now you can have peace of mind that you'll never have septic issues with the pond.

AND you and Dski will own a "Mystery Spot"

"Liberty Nature Preserve: Where Crap Flows UPhill"

Part of my whiney reaction to this altered plan included the anticipation of having to go back home and explain to the boss how my brainstormy planning for a simple septic system has failed. Having a quick response for all my woes, he tells me to remind her that she will have no fears for driving on the front yard AND won't have the dreaded "F" pattern in the lawn during the summer.
Lucky duck.

The worst part to me, Bski, is that I strongly suspect your area septic system requirements are set up for cramming houses in to subdivisions on 1/2 acre lots, and would have little relationship to your fitting one in to a parcel the size of LNP.

If you were just talking about an out building (shop, cabin, etc) then I would suggest another possiblilty. A propane fired incinerator toilet. There are 12 volt propane fired incinerator toilets (Eco John is a notable one) that basically incinerates the waste into a sterile ash. One five gallon tank of propane is good for approximately 200 "flushes." It is not real cheap to buy (approx $4,000 complete with all of the chimney parts) but it is completely self contained. Four grand sounds expensive but by the time you are done with the cost of the septic field installation the cost of a incinerator toilet (at least in our neck of the woods) begins to make a lot of sense.

Basically it looks much like a regular toilet. You do your business and then push a button. For the Eco John there are two different buttons one for urine and one for waste - it runs a more efficient burn cycle for just urine. The end result is a sterile ash. Once or twice a year you pull out the "ash tray" and scatter the ash, which is sterile so it doesn't matter where you put it, use it to fertilize your tomatoes, I don't care, I don't like raw tomatoes so I won't be eating them anyway. The unit is self contained and runs off of propane and a 12 volt battery - hook up a small (15 watts is more than enough) solar panel and you're good to go (no pun intended, however I did find the pun amusing, then again I'm easily amused).

There are several companies that make incinerator toilets: Eco John, Incinolet, Stor Burn. I prefer the Eco John in that it does not "store" waste. After each use it runs a small and efficient burn cycle. Others like the Stor Burn, store the waste in a larger tank and then, when the tank gets full, it will incinerate the tank full. The Eco John is more like a regular toilet. You use it, you "flush" it, end of story.

Incinerator toilets are, IMHO, good alternatives for an "off the grid" non septic system waste disposal system. There are also "composting toilets" but they get very mixed reviews and are more of a pain to maintain.

You obviously will need to check with local regulations, etc, etc, blah, blah, your mileage may vary, member FDIC.

Keep in mind that these are more cabin/out building oriented not for a full house system and so may not be applicable for your use. So once again you should probably ignore everything that I just wrote.

Why do you people keep paying attention to any advice I give? Jeez how many times do you have to hit your thumb with a hammer....

Brettski, for what it's worth: I had a similar experience with the soil and water department. The first lady came out and did a perc test and said no problem. After the house was built the original S&W lady retired and the new one said we had to do another test. The new lady didn't like the results so she said we had to install a curtain drain. My septic system was set into fill from digging my pond. It's pretty much nothing but clay with a little topsoil on top. One difference between mine and yours is that my fill was pushed in place with a track machine. It's been five years so far and we haven't had any trouble but I was taught that soil takes 7 years to settle, or at least before it's considered "undisturbed". In practical experience though I've seen it take 10 years to settle so I'll just be keeping an eye on my place.

Pumping would be a last resort for me. If I was in your shoes, I would continue to search for alternatives to mechanically lifting. Maybe the septic system installers will have some ideas.

Good info above, JHAP, even if it's not applicable for Bski.

YA HOO! I'm up to six good posts. Count'em 6.

Take than naysayers!

Plus I'm recently received a Theo rimshot. I'm on a roll I tell ya.

brettski have you considered an aerobic system?

Around Plain City the soil doesn't perc much either and the new houses have some sort of sand mounds behind them.

Bretski...

I agree with James. I have an aerobic system at my place and have had no problems in 6 years. The only problem you might have is the 20 amp circuit you would need for the pump and aerator.

What happens if you give a "Courtesy Flush"???????

I have heard of lighting a fart, but that takes it to the extreme!!!

aka; mound system. Often used for areas of very high water table. I can't go there (aesthetic issues for me and maybe zoning for the county...?), but thanks for kickin' in Ryan.

Of course, it's on the radar simply because it is an option....but a long shot for my desires.
The jury is still out on whether I am actually going to bring in utility power or go totally off-grid solar. In fact, the electric guru joined me at the same time as the perc-test guru. I should have utility powered shock-and-awe delivered in about 2 weeks (in the form of an installation quote).
As Ezlyman pointed out, there is a power requirement (that I believe is fairly constant...?) for aerobic. I am already having some power issues with the thought of an ejector pump running occassionally, but it will be infrequent and should not draw killer wattage. Unless someone can show me otherwise, the total avg. power draw should be considerably lower with the ejector system. Also, with the ejector system, it is something that I could service....should the stinkin' thing ever need it.

I am not sure of the power draw for the ejector system, but I am fairly confident that you could put together some solar panels with a battery to power the system. I don't know what the average monthly draw would be, but if you contact one of the manufacturers, I am sure they could let you know. With the aerobic system, the aerator runs constantly and the pump runs for a couple of minutes after every 100 gallons or so.

I have thought about hooking up two separate lines when I build my house with only the toilets going to the septic and everything else going to a gray water system that could be used for irrigation anywhere I want to put it. This would cut down MASSIVELY on the load that your septic system would have to deal with. Up front cost is probably around $1000 - $1500, but the decreased load on the septic system will help make that cost up by not having to pump out the tank as frequently. I am thinking of a 4 or 5 year payback if I put in a dual system. Send me a PM if you want to talk with me.

So, I call my septic contractor with the news about the soils analysis. He is immediately put out by the way it all played out. It became quickly apparent to me that I would have done much better by having him with us during the field inspection and soils analysis. OK, spilt milk. Now what?
My guy tells me he wants to get out to the site and take another look. The date is made.
He looks it over and still cannot believe how the soils guy bull dozed me right into a 2-tank pump system. He turns his focus on the area behind the house and is disappointed that the soils guy didn't suggest using that area.
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He tells me that I want a conventional septic system if at all possible for simplicity of function and maintenance. Makes perfect sense to me, but how? He asks me why I don't want to put the tank and field behind the house. I thought that would be obvious. There isn't much real estate for a field and it's uphill from where a tank would be located. He kicks the dirt and chuckles. A little creativity can go a long way in achieving the system we seek. He suggests that I allow him to get the county health inspector to the sight to see what can be done. Whoa! Done deal; go for it. He does.
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I get a phone call a couple weeks later. It's my contractor. He got the inspector out to the sight. He started verbally describing what the plan would be to salvage installation of a conventional system. It starts to confuse me a bit, and another date is set to meet at the site to lay it out.
It winds up that the inspector likes the area behind the house. It's close enough to the area that the soils guy approved out in the field so he will also approve the soils closer to the house. It also happens to be undisturbed soil; he likes that too. I'm still baffled on how he's going to work it into the uphill slope.
The inspector told him that we can't go down beyond 18" - 24" max. My contractor assures me that he can still sneak in a conventional field, reminding me that the tile and field does not have to be right up at the surface. He can artfully cheat it in with the proper slope, starting shallow nearer the house and going downhill and deeper as we move toward the uphill slope. I'm used to seeing septic fields as large, square'ish blocks. He laughs again, telling me they can be any shape that it takes to make it work. Mine will be very wide. The soil pipe will exit the gar/apt high and very near grade (to allow enough downhill trajectory as we move along thru the system).

This map of the building site is fairly accurate for scale. The only change would be the footprint for the structure grew to 28 x 44. The bottom curvature of the site is the shoreline of the pond. This is the larger zone where I originally wanted the septic field. The new plan puts the field at the top, stretched out left and right, between the structures and the timber behind them.
The tank will be buried between the garage/apt that we are building right now and the location of the future house. The field will be directly adjacent behind both buildings. The lay of the land and the uphill slope will force the field to not move very far in the uphill direction, but spread out to the left and right. We will have to pluck out a few more trees and open up the treeline at the back of the backyard area to make enough room, but he is confident it can be done.
The plan is to install a 1250 gallon tank with enough openings to allow for inlets from boths sides (to receive inflow from the gar/apt and also the future house). We will only hook up the gar/apt. Also, to save money, we will only install enough field to service the smaller gar/apt. The inspector wants 1200 sq ft of field for this beginner system (4 runs of 100' x 3' wide). The distribution box just past the septic tank will be selected as a type to allow expansion of the field size at a later date.
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So....what did I learn? As always, work with a contractor that is known and has good reputation. Like my guy, he will know the right people and be able to secure the best possible results. If it costs a little more, pay the price to have him actively involved during the soils testing. I sure wish my guy was there for that one. Finally, don't assume knowledge of physics means the answers (and roadblocks) are obvious. Let the guy that has been doing it for years share a little bit of the art'sy end of getting a job done. He can bridge the gap between book smarts and street smarts.

The conventional system will be cheaper to operate in the long run as well, K.I.S.S. philosophy.

And there's darn little to break.

I have an aerobic and for breakage there is only the air pump. The area used is small, not fields, one in pipe and two out, air vent and waste water.

4 bathroom and 7 people.

The output is allowable for gardens.

I have 3 other non aerobic systems and they have only been in service since November, so I have no experience as yet.

This maybe off topic a bit but, I would recommend that you have a separate system for gray water. 5 of my 7 users are female and their hair causes more problems than any other single factor.