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Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
Thanks for the diversion Steve_! Back to your regularly scheduled program...

No problem! It's interesting to see the numbers, but if you're comparing what it takes to cool air against what it takes to cool water, I think the numbers would be slightly off. It does take more energy to cool the water, but it also holds temperature better than air.

Side question, do you have any trees or shade around your pond, or does it get direct sunlight most of the day?


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The pond has morning and evening shade. It starts getting direct sunlight around 9:30am and starts losing it at 4:30pm.

As far as the heat transfer calcs...the estimates for tonage sizes we're for water chillers, but the comparisons to AC units may not be apples and apples. Good point!

Last edited by Quarter Acre; 06/10/20 05:23 AM.

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Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
The last week or so has had lows near 70 F and highs in the mid to upper 80's and low 90's

So I'm just going back to my initial line of thinking. Theoretically speaking, if you could turn your pond over 2-3x while the temp was 70F you could lower the ponds temp. Why not just upsize the pump and turn it over as many times as possible at night??

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 06/10/20 07:20 AM.

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I know your onto the solution to better temps and better DO WB with a larger system. My aeration system is currently turning over the pond almost 5 times during the 8:30pm to 10:30am schedule. I believe this is contributing to the turbidity issues. I can get more turn-overs by lowering the 3 diffusers to a foot off the bottom, but, again, turbidity. If I drop the diffusers to the bottom, I estimate that I can turn the pond over about 7 times in the current 14 hour run-time. So, I'm in a pickle I guess. My goal is to get between 24 and 36" visibility with good DO levels and to understand my pond more. My pond is throwing the "one turn-over per day rule of thumb" back in my face even at near 5 times at night. Do I need to actually hit the one turn-over per day rather than exceed it? Maybe?

I am working on taking crawdads out to reduce the muddy waters, but don't want to eliminate them. Once I get some clarity, maybe I'll start dropping the diffusers back down for more water movement.


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Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
I know your onto the solution to better temps and better DO WB with a larger system. My aeration system is currently turning over the pond almost 5 times during the 8:30pm to 10:30am schedule. I believe this is contributing to the turbidity issues. I can get more turn-overs by lowering the 3 diffusers to a foot off the bottom, but, again, turbidity. If I drop the diffusers to the bottom, I estimate that I can turn the pond over about 7 times in the current 14 hour run-time. So, I'm in a pickle I guess. My goal is to get between 24 and 36" visibility with good DO levels and to understand my pond more. My pond is throwing the "one turn-over per day rule of thumb" back in my face even at near 5 times at night. Do I need to actually hit the one turn-over per day rather than exceed it? Maybe?

I am working on taking crawdads out to reduce the muddy waters, but don't want to eliminate them. Once I get some clarity, maybe I'll start dropping the diffusers back down for more water movement.

Spawning activity can also be a significant contributor to turbidity.

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Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
Originally Posted by Steve_
So I have a few questions, and forgive my ignorance on the subject. Is the reason that a pond's temp increases with aeration related to the outside air temperature due to the location of the compressor? (i.e. If your compressor is outside in 90-degree air, it's sending 90-degree air into the water, which is what causes the water to heat up.) If yes, would the opposite also be true, if the compressor is in a climate-controlled room, which could potentially send cooler air into the water?

The water tends to heat up due the the added exposure to the sun and ambient air temps. This is because the water is constantly being turned over bringing cooler water up and allowing it to "soak up" the heat. Eventually, you heat up the entire column of water. Some heating occurs due to the hot compressor air, but I am betting its negligible compared to the power of the sun and air temps.


BUT, there is a thing called evaporation cooling. So, depending on the humidity reading in the ambient air, wouldn't aerating also possibly cool the pond as the air that is pushed to the bottom of the pond absorbs moisture from the pond on it's way to the surface?

QA, have you tried the jar test to see if the clay turbidity is due to electrical inbalance or mechanical means? If you had a denser phytoplankton bloom (18" -24" visibility and none of that due to clay turbidity) I think your O2 levels would be higher in the daytime and therefore when you ran the aerator at night you would have higher O2 levels overall than what you have now.

I would be interested to see what the O2 levels (and temp levels) would be if you ran the system 24/7 for a week. If you felt the water was getting too warm you could shut the system off and the water at the bottom of the pond would start cooling off pretty quickly due to the cooler soil temps surrounding the pond.


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Originally Posted by esshup
BUT, there is a thing called evaporation cooling. So, depending on the humidity reading in the ambient air, wouldn't aerating also possibly cool the pond as the air that is pushed to the bottom of the pond absorbs moisture from the pond on it's way to the surface?

Not that I have done any testing on the subject, but my gut tells me that any cooling from evaporation is over taken considerably by the radiant heat from the sun and the convection heat from the ambient air at the water-to-air interface. Evaporative cooling works best in very low humidity areas and the surface of a pond would not be considered low humidity especially not in my neck of the woods.

Originally Posted by esshup
QA, have you tried the jar test to see if the clay turbidity is due to electrical inbalance or mechanical means? If you had a denser phytoplankton bloom (18" -24" visibility and none of that due to clay turbidity) I think your O2 levels would be higher in the daytime and therefore when you ran the aerator at night you would have higher O2 levels overall than what you have now.

It's been a while since I performed a Jar test. This was from last year with a clarity of 18"...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

If it is suspended clay...it's may just have to "be what it be". I will not be treating my pond with alum (etc). I get too much water throughput to spend the time and money on chemicals. One good rain and I have just treated the creek. I would like to hear more about electrical imbalances however. That sounds interesting! I am having a hard time understanding how a BOW that is SO connected to the earth could have an electrical imbalance...seems like a pond would be about as grounded as anything could be.

Originally Posted by esshup
I would be interested to see what the O2 levels (and temp levels) would be if you ran the system 24/7 for a week. If you felt the water was getting too warm you could shut the system off and the water at the bottom of the pond would start cooling off pretty quickly due to the cooler soil temps surrounding the pond.

I have not done this, but have wondered the same thing. Maybe I will try this later in late summer early fall. I do recall trying to run the air 24/7 early on and found the water temps to climb above 85 and had to back off the runtimes.


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Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
If it is suspended clay...it's may just have to "be what it be". I will not be treating my pond with alum (etc). I get too much water throughput to spend the time and money on chemicals. One good rain it I have just treated the creek. I would like to hear more about electrical imbalances however. That sounds interesting! I am having a hard time understanding how a BOW that is SO connected to the earth could have an electrical imbalance...seems like a pond would be about as grounded as anything could be.

QA - I believe what he is referring to is the electrical charge of the tiny plate-shaped clay particles that prevent them from settling. The alum atoms have the opposite charge which allows the clay/alum to bind together such that they are dense enough to settle to the bottom. see https://wkrec.ca.uky.edu/files/muddyponds.pdf That treated clay is therefore "forever" treated and will re-settle if stirred, but you need to prevent additional untreated clay from washing into your pond. Or untreated clay on the bottom from being stirred up. "Unused" alum does not stay suspended in the water column from what I understand - it sinks to the bottom.

I treated my pond with alum about 3 months ago and have been very happy with the results thus far. Secchi readings went from 8" to 36" that afternoon. Its a pleasure to see bluegill and bass cruising around. Last week I got 5" rain but all is still good.

Since you get some (most?) of the clay settling in your jars, it appears part (majority?) of your problem is mechanical action of crawfish, bullheads, tadpoles, aeration, etc.


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After clearing up the water and having 30" of visibility you need to keep a close eye on the vegetation growth. Vegetation can grow out of control real fast once the clear water allows the sunlight to hit the ponds bottom. Identify the plants that start up making sure you know what it is and how to control it. If you don't have grass carp then I suggest you get some as soon as possible after clearing up the water.


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Tracy, you probably mentioned it earlier but I forgot: did you stock extra crawfish this year? If not, do you think they might have helped control the vegetation a bit? I have some naturally, but maybe could add more next spring if the world gets a little more sane.

Last edited by anthropic; 07/31/20 08:31 AM.

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Red, I'm pretty dumb with respect to clearing the water with Alum, so my fear is that I would clear the pond in April/May time frame and a gully washer would put the mud back into the water column...I'm guessing my efforts would be in vain. My little 1/4 acre pond has an excess of 20 acres of watershed and can get flushed with just a few inches of rain...we got 2 inches last night and that sent water through the pipe when it was down 3 inches yesterday.

Tracy and ant, should I ever clear the water with Alum...my crawdad population MIGHT thin out enough to grow some veggies. Maybe the fish could see them better. A carp would starve to death in my pond right now.


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I had almost perfect fertilized water for about 3 1/2 yrs And then visibility went to 9" vis. of fertile water. I also had a problem with aeration disturbing up detritus on the ponds bottom which contributed to the low visibility. I raised the diffusers off bottom. I decided to add alum/lime treatment. At that time I had some American pondweed along the shoreline. Water cleared to 36" and shortly after that the Bushy pondweed showed up along the edges of the APW. That was in the fall. I added 3 Grass carp per acre. The water cleared even more that winter with 8 to 10' foot of visibility. The following spring the BPW was growing all over the pond to the point it covered 70% of the pond. I added another 5 grass carp making a total of 5 per acre. All the vegetation caused low DO and a fish kill. I will wait till the water cools down and start fishing again and see what I have left.

Frank, I do have crawfish. I see them along the ponds shoreline and when raking the matts I find some in the mat. I believe I would have to have a commercial crawfish pond if I wanted to have stopped the bushy pondweed. And even that may not work. I feel like the feeding of the fish over a five year period contributed to the vegetation growth through high nutrient water, along with the clear water. It made the perfect storm!

I feel like this has set my goals for the pond back at least 3 yrs.


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Tracy
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