Last year I bought a camp with two ponds. Each of them about an acre. They were over run with lamb and nothing else. I started removing them last spring and took over 350 out. I also stocked 200 channel cats. Unfortunately when they arrived they were not 6” as advertised - more like 3”. I had no choice but to put them in and hope the bass wouldn’t eat them all. I caught a couple bass that week with channel cats in their stomach. But I put a pretty good dent in the lmb by then. I saw no signs of the small cats all last summer so i found a source for 8” channel cats - large enough to avoid being eaten. I stocked 30 in each pond. They have been doing well and are now 2 1/2 pounds or so. I feed floating pellets 2 -4 times a week. Suddenly this spring I noticed some smaller cats in the mix. First it was one. Then two or three. They are clearly from the original stocking last year. Survivors! Does anyone have a clue how to know how many survived? Why did they show up now - almost a year after stocking? It’s a bit of a mystery to me as I assumed they had all been eaten. I just wish I knew whether there were a lot of them that made it (and they just arent showing when I feed). Do small cats avoid feeding when larger cats are actively feeding? Hoping some of you can shed some light on this. Thanks In advance.
How big are the remaining lmb? How big are the smaller ones? Assuming thay are not new recruits...They probably showed up recently because they, now, have larger cats to hang with (added protection, safety in numbers) and/or they are now large enough to not be eaten. Shy fish will often feed, but stay low in the water column picking up the sinking bits. Their comfort level has grow to hang with the big dogs. Seine surveys could be done to get an idea of the numbers.
Cats are known to feed easily and aggressively. Keep feeding and watch for increasing numbers of the smaller ones. My gut tells me that if very many survived, they will come at feeding time. I'd use a ratio to estimate the total number by comparing it to the numbers of larger ones that show up. Rough idea, any how. If 15 larger ones show up... That's 50% and if 10 smaller ones show up, then I'd guess you have about 20 left. This will work better once they, small ones, get accustomed to feeding. I'm making this up to some degree, but it's what if do in lieu of a seine survey.
Thanks so much for the response. I'm at my computer now instead of phone so I can give a little more detail.
First off the Bass size - The ones I've removed (350) were almost all between 6 and 8 inches. I believe I caught 3 that were over 12. Currently there are still some bass in the pond. I know there are at least a couple over 12" but the vast majority are 6". I am continuing to remove them although not as aggressively since I think the majority are small enough that the cats will be safe.
When I stocked the initial 200 small cats I did not feed for almost 2 months. Partially because I thought they'd been eaten and partially because I feared that getting them up on the surface would expose them to further predation. So I did wonder if the absence of feed for so long caused them to find alternative food - making them less likely to come back to the floating pellets.
I think your thoughts about the small ones being less bold and likely feeding lower in the water column probably makes more sense.
My experience is that I do not see CC surface feeding till they get some size. They are pretty easily spooked when they are small, probably for good reason.
Once you know for sure you have some left, you could get a bag of sinking feed. They actually prefer to feed off the bottom. Problem is with sinking feed you can not tell if it is getting eaten or just fouling the water. But if your water is clear enough you may be able to see them. If you walk up and a swish of muddy water is all you see, something was eating and left.
My experience is that I do not see CC surface feeding till they get some size. They are pretty easily spooked when they are small, probably for good reason.
Once you know for sure you have some left, you could get a bag of sinking feed. They actually prefer to feed off the bottom. Problem is with sinking feed you can not tell if it is getting eaten or just fouling the water. But if your water is clear enough you may be able to see them. If you walk up and a swish of muddy water is all you see, something was eating and left.
+1 on everything snrub said. Fingerling cats typically disappear for the first year.
You mentioned how the BOWs are overrun with LMB but didn't mention what forage species might also be present. Also, you mentioned removing the bass but didn't mention whether you were eating them. 6" is pretty small I know, but LMB that size pan fry just fine and yield small filets that are easy to remove from the fish.
The impression I get is that the ponds were single species (only LMB) when you acquired them where perhaps only LMB were originally stocked or perhaps stocked in combination with shiners that the LMB eventually extirpated. Is this correct?
Last edited by jpsdad; 08/11/1908:54 PM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
I did eat any that were large enough to get a filet off of. I love all seafood so I’m not one to let it go to waste.
You are basically correct that there was nothing in the pond other than lmb. The original owner stocked multiple species - all predators. Obviously that didn’t go well. I have seen no evidence of anything but lmb. I have established a fairly healthy population of native BG. There are now all sizes represented. I will be adding fatheads shortly as my pocketbook allows. Ultimately I plan on putting in a small pond and dyke above the two existing ponds to use as a fhm breeding pond.
The pond is infinitely healthier than when I acquired it. With the drastic reduction of lmb the pond is so much healthier. There were no frogs or tadpoles. This year there were thousands of tadpoles and the frogs are so loud they keep you up at night. Bluegills are present in the shallows in all sizes. I have a long way to go but the change in one year has been remarkable.
I did eat any that were large enough to get a filet off of. I love all seafood so I’m not one to let it go to waste.
You are basically correct that there was nothing in the pond other than lmb. The original owner stocked multiple species - all predators. Obviously that didn’t go well. I have seen no evidence of anything but lmb. I have established a fairly healthy population of native BG. There are now all sizes represented. I will be adding fatheads shortly as my pocketbook allows. Ultimately I plan on putting in a small pond and dyke above the two existing ponds to use as a fhm breeding pond.
The pond is infinitely healthier than when I acquired it. With the drastic reduction of lmb the pond is so much healthier. There were no frogs or tadpoles. This year there were thousands of tadpoles and the frogs are so loud they keep you up at night. Bluegills are present in the shallows in all sizes. I have a long way to go but the change in one year has been remarkable.
Great. BTW, you harvested at least 60 pounds of LMB at an average weight of 3oz per fish. I'm not surprised with the improvement you note above. You should find the BG will grow fast (and large) and that the LMB will grow larger from the changes you made. I might have brought up some options for forage but given that you have already introduced the BG it is time to enjoy the benefit this additional forage will provide.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Thanks so much for the information. I would be curious what forage you would have suggested despite the fact that I chose a different path. The reality is that BG were the most economical option for me and they fit the overall plan I have in mind. At least I think they do. I also failed to mention there are koi in the pond. They do not spawn. I would not choose koi but they were here and loved by the previous owner. He was a dear family friend and when he passed his wife made it possible to own their property. Something I am grateful for and thus his koi will have safe passage here until their time is up. I would post a pic but I haven’t figured that part out yet
BG were one of the options and as you mention they are most economical. Also they should provide the largest ultimate size LMB. You are putting in a good fishing effort and if you will continue this you should see good improvement in the size of the LMB. If you succeed in thinning the LMB to consistently grow them to over 3 lbs then you will likely see the growth of the BG decline and their numbers increase. In the beginning you should see very good growth for both species. Right now, the bow is way below its carrying capacity (excluding the CC) and you should see a good response for both LMB and BG.
The other option might have been annual introduction of adult golden shiner say 10 to 20 lbs per acre and timed for water temps breaking 60F. The shiners probably won't be able to get established sufficiently to overwinter but they should be able to breed and produce many offspring that would substantially supplement the forage for the LMB. In this case you would produce a lot more weight of LMB annually and continue to have high LMB reproduction. You might only choose this if don't mind LMB < 15" but like large numbers of them for catching and eating. Shiners would produce a larger standing weight of LMB, larger numbers of LMB, and LMB of smaller size (than with BG). This wouldn't however be better if that isn't what you want. With two BOWs you could have set up both provided the lower BOW was the one with BG. This might have also allowed you move male BG to the upper bow (say 10 per annum) which growth would be stellar.
As an aside, now that you have BG reproducing, I would be reluctant to add the Golden Shiner if large BG are desired further down the road. If this isn't a priority they should help you in combination with the BG to grow larger bass. You could use the planned forage pond to grow shiners. The benefit would be that they will more successfully reproduce and grow much larger than FHM.
Last edited by jpsdad; 08/11/1911:33 PM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
I would post a pic but I haven’t figured that part out yet
Try one of these.
A. Simplest 1. At the bottom of the reply window, click "Switch to Full Reply Screen" 2. Click "File Manager Link", then "Browse". 3. Select the image and then click "Add File" 4. you should see the file added in the list. jpeg is best format and try to size your images to 900 pixels on one side. While the image isn't visible without clicking the link it does allow the thread group to open faster.
B. Less simple but puts the image in the post 1. At the bottom of the reply window, click "Switch to Full Reply Screen" 2. Click the "Add Image" button and enter the URL of the image. In this case I used the URL at Pond Boss of the image file I uploaded using file manager. You could use an image service like Google photos, flicker, etc.
Last edited by jpsdad; 08/12/1912:00 AM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Welcome Ryan. I’m getting ready for stocking a new pond in the Finger Lakes. Is your camp in NY? Who did you go through for your CC? Again, welcome to the group.
My camp is in western NY. There’s a gentleman named Steve who runs whispering pines Near arcade NY who supplied me with larger channel cats. I would think he is an hour from you depending on where you are in the finger lakes. I think his prices may be a little higher than some but I also think the quality of fish may be higher as well. Let me know if you need any contact info.
Sure, pm me if you get a chance. I only know the private vendors listed on the dec website, and I’m going to be pushing the limits on the late stocking of forage fish this year, I hope.
