Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,899
Posts557,051
Members18,451
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,407
ewest 21,474
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
4 members (Brandon Larson, Blestfarmpond, Layne, Angler8689), 634 guests, and 143 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,213
Likes: 512
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,213
Likes: 512
I bought mine through Beaver springs (pondaerators.com) because they are a PB supporter. The panels are rated at 40w each so I'm going to run it in series with 2 DC Marine batts. I believe it will run up to 24hrs without a charge so running at night for a few hrs should just be a light cycle. I may even run a 24v bug light with it over pond.

Last edited by Snipe; 06/29/19 11:21 PM.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,792
Likes: 68
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,792
Likes: 68
Originally Posted By: Joey Quarry
Common? Obviously. Safe? I would be curious to see the publication where it is not detrimental to the fish prior to the water successfully completing a "nitrogen cycle".

I hate to make a diagnosis over the interwebs from a photo but, the gills and kidneys on the bluegills appear to be suffering from hyperplasia, a symptom of NH3.

If Snipe is correct about the "eye bulge", it could be "Pop Eye" caused by corneybacteriosis. Another symptom of NH3.

If I was to shake my Magic 8 Ball...


Lol - determination


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

[Linked Image from i1261.photobucket.com]


Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Originally Posted By: Joey Quarry
Common? Obviously. Safe? I would be curious to see the publication where it is not detrimental to the fish prior to the water successfully completing a "nitrogen cycle".

I hate to make a diagnosis over the interwebs from a photo but, the gills and kidneys on the bluegills appear to be suffering from hyperplasia, a symptom of NH3.

If Snipe is correct about the "eye bulge", it could be "Pop Eye" caused by corneybacteriosis. Another symptom of NH3.

If I was to shake my Magic 8 Ball...


Lol - determination


A cursory observation of the gill and kidney color from the photographs, would be indicative of hyperplasia to an extent:

https://en.wikivet.net/Gill_Hyperplasia

Last edited by Joey Quarry; 06/21/19 05:11 AM. Reason: To be nice :)
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,792
Likes: 68
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,792
Likes: 68
Give ‘em enough rope.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

[Linked Image from i1261.photobucket.com]


Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 271
R
Offline
R
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 271
The man who owns a hammer factory sees the world as a nail.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,345
Likes: 96
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Offline
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,345
Likes: 96
Just started watching a few threads here, been a busy, busy spring. Let me help out.
My gut feeling is the problem is with the original fish. I think something happened with them during the handling process. Delayed mortality isn't necessarily normal, but I've seen it happen. Here's an example: If fish are held on a truck too long, or in an oxygenated bag too long, there's an ammonia buildup in the transport water. Their gills are burned, and their metabolism is affected. Left in that water too long, they die quickly. But, I've seen fish before, tempered and stocked before they died on the truck, only to have some rapid mortality in the pond, within a few days. The other fish begin to heal, but with consequences. They're still "sick" because they can't fully recover unless all their stressors are gone. When the water temperature rises into stressful levels (above 84), their metabolism rates are affected and so is their ability to take up oxygen through damaged gills. When their metabolism revs up, they need more oxygen. On rare occasions, I've seen fish die a week, two weeks later, with a few lingering fish giving up within a month. I know this case fish have died later than that.

The fact that the supplier replaced the fish is a noble gesture, regardless of the cause of death. One question I would have asked the supplier is, "Did anyone else on this load lose any fish". If they're honest, which we presume they are, they'll answer. That gives a lead into the "problem".

Regarding ammonia being the "problem" here...there's got to be a source of ammonia in high enough levels to cause that to be the problem. It's common practice to stock a brand new pond immediately to make sure our stocked, desired fish gain a foothold before nature (or the friendly neighbor with stunted bass) stocks it for us. The only time I won't stock a new pond is if it is loaded with terrestrial vegetation that I expect to decompose rapidly. Then, we'll wait. Bluegill the size of the ones in the picture weigh about 15 per pound. That means less than 20 pounds were stocked. That mass of fish won't influence water quality.

If the fish haven't been the "problem", then there's something else besides ammonia causing water quality issues. After this much time, especially with aeration, the pond should be settling down.

My gut (and 40 years experience) suggests things will settle down, remaining fish will reproduce and the pond will be fine. If not, there's something else going on with the water that we don't know.


Teach a man to grow fish...
He can teach to catch fish...
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,792
Likes: 68
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,792
Likes: 68
Wisdom based on 40 years of professional experience - thanks Boss.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

[Linked Image from i1261.photobucket.com]


Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
With all due respect, Mr. Lusk, I have to disagree. The aquaculture science on the Nitrogen Cycle and toxicity of ammonia is published, accepted and peer reviewed. It is empirical and repeatable by anyone with a 5 gallon aquarium or a bait bucket.

Unionized ammonia in extremely small amounts is toxic. 0.03 mg/l or ppm, is detrimental to aquatic organisms. 0.05 mg/l or ppm, is toxic to fish (LD50). Ruth Francis-Floyd and Craig Watson at the University of Florida have over a century of Academic Research into the discipline:

https://thefishsite.com/articles/ammonia

To quote, "Of all the water quality parameters which affect fish, ammonia is the most important after oxygen, especially in intensive systems. In small amounts, ammonia causes stress and gill damage. Fish exposed to low levels of ammonia over time are more susceptible to bacterial infections, have poor growth and will not tolerate routine handling as well as they should. Ammonia is a killer when present in higher concentrations, and many unexplained production losses have been caused by ammonia."

The "Nitrogen Cycle" is one of the most studied, published and documented interactions within the scientific community. Stocking a pond before it successfully completes a nitrogen cycle, albeit "common", is not best practice:

http://answers.seneye.com/index.php?title=en/Aquarium_help/New_tank_syndrome_%26_NH3/benficial_bacteria

I am no mathematician but Swampsnyper stated he stocked in his half acre pond, "Initial stocking in April was 500 BG, 50 SC, and 1000 FHM, lost around 200 BG, restocked 250". By my math, at Mr. Lusk's estimation of 15BG/pound, he stocked about 50lbs of BG alone.

Restocking was a bad idea. If he lost 200BG, even worse are the ones he couldn't count on the bottom of the pond. Also, Swampsnyper posted 3 water tests, the first showing ammonia concentrations, then no ammonia but a level of phosphorous. His pond was naturally cycling, but poorly.

Now with his water temps at almost 90 degrees and a pH of 7.5, he is at the precipice of NH3 toxicity.

Last edited by Joey Quarry; 06/22/19 06:02 PM. Reason: added test samples.
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 50
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 50
Thanks for the opinions. Still no more fish kills since I last reported. Bob’s post reminded me of something else that happened upon fish pick up. I tried to get to the feed store as soon as the fish truck told me they will be there. Once I got there, they were already there. They had 2 bags of 50 CNBG already bagged and sitting in the shade. I don’t think they were there 10 min before I got there but I don’t know for sure. After I reported to them of the 1st fish kill they said they had some sick fish from pollen and I may have got some from that batch. When I went to pick up the 250 replacement fish he told me he was on his way to Arkansas to pick up more fish. He is local here in Alabama and I thought he raised the fish here. I don’t know what kind of facility he has and if he holds fish at his place or just keeps them on the truck and distributes. I don’t know if I can blame the fish kill on there process but I’d feel better about getting my fish with less traveling involved.

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,125
Likes: 273
A
Offline
A
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 1,125
Likes: 273
Originally Posted By: swampsnyper
When I went to pick up the 250 replacement fish he told me he was on his way to Arkansas to pick up more fish.


I was supposed to get some RES this spring from the local bait-n-tackle shop/lake management outfit. They source those RES from a hatchery in Arkansas. I didn't get them because all of the sunfish from that hatchery were failing the health check. Some sort of gill fungus issue is how it was described to me. The hatchery was willing to ship them, but my guy refuses to take fish that don't come with a clean bill of health.

Probably just anecdotal information to further confound the issue.

All of those sick fish have since moved into the Arkansas River due to the recent flooding.

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 534
Likes: 76
4
Offline
4
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 534
Likes: 76
My training and experiences as a biologist tend to direct me towards the simpler explanation to a problem when confronted by more than one possibility.
Which of these 2 scenarios appears to be the simpler leading up to the outcome? Can they both be responsible?

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,345
Likes: 96
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Offline
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,345
Likes: 96
Joey,
Thanks for your respectful disagreement.
I'll take my 40 years of making a living providing results over anything empirical, anything replicated in a bucket or aquarium. Empirical science, especially this stuff, doesn't account for all the variables, especially in a pond. There's way more biology going on in this case than simply the nitrogen cycle. Plus, the nitrogen cycle rate depends on other variables, substrate, bacterial colonies, periphyton, vegetation or lack of vegetation, other metals and minerals dissolved in the water, temperatures, fluctuation of temperatures, rain, runoff, point-source.

I appreciate your scientific contribution to this thread. The bottom line is no one has figured out the problem here, so no one can offer a solution.

Time will tell here. Having handled literally millions of fish and stocking hundreds of ponds and lakes, monitoring many of those lakes for years, my gut says something was wrong with those fish when stocked. I'll stick with that.

By the way, there's nothing "intensive" about this case. Very low biomass compared to volume of water.

Thought I'd add a little bit more to educate those reading this thread. Even if we could make the argument that the pond water has/had toxic levels of ammonia, the level of ammonia (wherever it is in the denitrification process) won't be the same throughout the pond. It won't be the same for several reasons. Ammonia ions don't weigh the same as water molecules. Levels won't be the same on the bottom of the pond as on the surface. It won't be the same six inches from a rock as it will be next to the mud. It won't be the same where mixing from wave action is occurring. While we can replicate the science in a bucket, a pond isn't a bucket. There has to be a source of the ammonia and it has to be accelerated beyond the exponential growth of denitrifying bacteria. Even 50 pounds of bluegill in a pond that size won't be a significant source. As dynamic as the nitrogen cycle is, it won't be the same on Day 1 as it is on Day 6, or on Day 7 or Day 135.5.

Believe me, I'm not disputing the science. I'm saying the odds of ammonia being the "problem" in this case could have only occurred as a result of the way the fish were handled between the hatchery and the pond where they were stocked. If the fish died due to ammonia issues, it happened during transport.

Finally, if ammonia were truly the issue in this case, there are hundreds of thousands (literally) of other ponds that should fall victim. They don't.

Last edited by Bob Lusk; 06/23/19 07:07 PM.

Teach a man to grow fish...
He can teach to catch fish...
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
Offline
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 212
Likes: 5
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, Mr. Lusk. I am sure every member appreciates your contributions and wisdom to this thread and every facet of pond management.

I always refrain from posting my sheepskin and experience, since my best learning experiences are when I am wrong and those are too numerous to count. I learn nothing when I am right.

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 50
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 50
Originally Posted By: Augie
Originally Posted By: swampsnyper
When I went to pick up the 250 replacement fish he told me he was on his way to Arkansas to pick up more fish.


I was supposed to get some RES this spring from the local bait-n-tackle shop/lake management outfit. They source those RES from a hatchery in Arkansas. I didn't get them because all of the sunfish from that hatchery were failing the health check. Some sort of gill fungus issue is how it was described to me. The hatchery was willing to ship them, but my guy refuses to take fish that don't come with a clean bill of health.

Probably just anecdotal information to further confound the issue.

All of those sick fish have since moved into the Arkansas River due to the recent flooding.


That would sum up all my experiences with this pond since day one. The worse should be behind me now right? lol

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 50
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 50
So what should I do next? Restock some more CNBG? My numbers should still be fine? Stock F1 bass in the fall? Wait to stock bass in the spring? Fill in pond and install a swimming pool for the wife?

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,345
Likes: 96
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Offline
Editor, Pond Boss Magazine
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,345
Likes: 96
Feed your fish and see what the response is. Then, let's talk about it. Better, pm me with your number and I'll call and we'll talk.


Teach a man to grow fish...
He can teach to catch fish...
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 50
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 50
Originally Posted By: Bob Lusk
Feed your fish and see what the response is. Then, let's talk about it. Better, pm me with your number and I'll call and we'll talk.


Great, done.

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 50
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 50
Update,
Fish are still doing fine. Still running aerator from 12am until 8. Water is looking good. BG are very active and growing. I’m seeing plenty fry balls. Not sure if it’s minnows or baby BG. Water level is still dropping 1/4in a day if it doesn’t rain. Very few light showers here and there. Not enough to raise the level.

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,213
Likes: 512
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,213
Likes: 512
1/4" a day seems absolutely normal this time of year. I lose 3/4" a day with highs near 100 and 10% humidity. Warm day then 60 at night, it transfers via "fog" at night back into the cool air. If the wind blows with it here, (normally does) we can see over an inch drop in 24 hrs.
I'd be extremely happy with 1/4" a day this time of year!

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 50
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 50
Originally Posted By: Snipe
1/4" a day seems absolutely normal this time of year. I lose 3/4" a day with highs near 100 and 10% humidity. Warm day then 60 at night, it transfers via "fog" at night back into the cool air. If the wind blows with it here, (normally does) we can see over an inch drop in 24 hrs.
I'd be extremely happy with 1/4" a day this time of year!


Oh, I am!

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 28
L
Offline
L
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,177
Likes: 28
Not to argue, but some observations with the nitrogen cycle in aquariums vs. ponds if a definite "it depends".

Due to many mistakes as a kid introducing fish far too soon into an aquarium, I have learned to be anal about testing for cycling a new body of water. I did it for many aquariums, the 1/2 acre pond, and now a lined 20x22' garden pond.

In my big 1/2 acre pond, the cycle appeared to begin almost right away, as soon as the first raindrop splashed in the mud. I couldn't even measure it with a standard aquarium kit. The cycle likely completed when there was just a few inches of water standing in the bottom. The bacteria already present in the soil, and "dust" in the air is a major kick-start to the process compared to an almost sterile environment of a plastic/glass container with a brand new filter system indoors. I doubt nutrients stand much of a chance of cranking out toxic ammonia in a pond unless there is a huge inrush of cow leavings or fertilizer as the pond fills. That would be a huge obvious problem.

A new pond basin has almost no nutrients typically, but perhaps not always the case in a fertile environment with ground runoff. But I highly doubt the initial ammonia cycle in the pond nailed his fish, way too long of time elapsed before they were added. If it had, the pond would have had an obvious smell to it.

If damage were caused by ammonia, it could be related to new nutrients in the water column from initial over-feeding and nearby fertilizer runoff causing a quick change in water quality. Perhaps you could call this a cycle, but not quite the same thing. This could happen any time in a pond or aquarium's life by adding decaying matter or fertilizer into a BOW that overwhelms the ability of minimally established life to break it down safely. i.e. a lot of dead fish.

One of the tricks I employ with a new aquarium is to take filter media from an established aquarium, even from the fish store, and jam it in the new filter. The settle time goes from more than a couple of weeks down to a couple of days. I still wait a couple of weeks to introduce fish just to be sure. Pond basin soil and nearby topsoil is like the soggy, nasty filter media I jammed in a new filter.

I expect my new lined pond to take a couple of weeks to safely cycle, even tough I added a little topsoil to the bottom to kick-start it. There isn't enough surface area to host plentiful bacteria to deal with fish just yet. More plants and pots of soil and gravel need to be added in. So far, the first spike of ammonia has yet to even show up, but I just half-filled it yesterday and threw in some already established lilies and iris from the old pond. I may have put a little too much soil mixed in with the gravel, it is kind of murky.

I would love to throw in fish before it's ready so I can control the skeeters that will surely get there first! Goldfish can take the cycle, barely, but they stink at eating skeeters. The plan is to put guppies in to start, knowing full well they will kick the bucket come fall. Just curious to see how quickly they will reproduce. Then comes the fun next year to track down our native little fish to put in there, just for curiosity and too small to eat the frogs.

Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 198
Likes: 4
N
Offline
N
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 198
Likes: 4
I just cycled a 125 gal aquarium - added some small (1" to 3") bluegills after about a week while it was still cycling - they have done fine. It is finally cycled but took much longer than I expected (couple months) - ph is around 6.8 so that may have made the ammonia less toxic to the fish.

Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 1
I
Offline
I
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 1
Hello Everyone, I’m very new to learning on taking care of my pond. This topic is interesting could someone help with a few questions.

What would black walnuts do to pond water? I creek by the house is called the Big Walnut! Ha

What would be the water test kit I should get to test my water. How often do you test water?

Thanks for your help and teaching me everyone.

Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by Rainman - 03/28/24 02:53 AM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by Mark Dyer - 03/27/24 10:18 PM
Reducing fish biomass
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:17 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:05 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/27/24 06:02 PM
Questions and Feedback on SMB
by Donatello - 03/27/24 03:10 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by Bill Cody - 03/27/24 10:18 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by esshup - 03/27/24 08:47 AM
2024 North Texas Optimal BG food Group Buy
by Dave Davidson1 - 03/27/24 08:15 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by esshup - 03/26/24 10:00 PM
Freeze Danger? - Electric Diaphragm Pump
by esshup - 03/26/24 09:47 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5