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Joined: Apr 2019
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I have read posts on this forum for years but this is my first post.

I have a 4 acre pond in central North Carolina. My family and I built the pond about 18 years ago. The pond has great cover in deep water and shallow water. We built this pond just for trophy bass. We stocked the pond with fathead minnows and coppernose bluegill while the pond was filling up. After a few weeks we stocked the pond with F1 tiger bass from American sportfish. The results were amazing. 4 to 5 pond bass the second year. Everything was great. Multiple bass over 10 pounds have been caught in this pond. We fed the bluegill with an automatic feeder and still do so today. The last 3-4 years have been puzzling. I noticed that I was not catching many large bass anymore. The bluegill were doing great. Thousands of them all sizes. I continued to take out bass 8-14” and over the last 4 years have not caught a bass over 5 pounds. I began to worry so I have the pond electro shocked. The study showed a great bluegill population however the bass numbers were very low. Only 2 bass were shocked up over 4 pounds. Most bass were 1-2.5 pounds. 1 crappie was shocked up and I have caught maybe 3-4 crappie in the pond over the last 4 years. I am not sure how they got in there. The pond is fed by a large creek with a 10 acre pond above it on the neighboring property. Possibly they came in from there during a flood??? Anyways the low bass numbers and small bass look to be consistent with a crappie influence however I do not feel like that is the case. There is something causing low bass recruitment but I can’t figure out what it is. Does anyone have any ideas??? Could an osprey do damage to a pond like this? I saw one around the pond one time last year. My thoughts on the Osprey was that the bluegill would fall victim just as much as the bass.

I was planning on restocking about 50-75 new 6-8” bass in the pond but no one in my area has F1 tiger bass. I have access to some 8” northern strain largemouth but wanted to go back in with some F1s because of the great success before.

Also last year I removed about 200 large bluegills from the pond thinking there might be an overcrowding if bluegill?? If that even exists?? I have heard it is very hard to overcrowd a pond with bluegill. It just doesn’t make sense to me and I am thinking someone here might have an idea.

So my question is what do you think is causing the low bass recruitment? Also do you guys think stocking new young northern strain largemouth bass would help?

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Maybe Mr Lusk will Join in and tell the story where he told Bill Dance the lmb will not grow any larger if they are removed. So maybe, to many 8 to 14" were taken out. And the larger lmb died out after 18 yrs. And if the cnbg are in the thousands they can affect lmb reproduction, not saying they did but I have personally experienced that.


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That’s a good idea. I probably should have stopped removing the smaller bass when I saw the larger bass numbers deplete. The reason I was taking out the smaller bass was to not have an overcrowding problem. Do you think the larger/older bass died out and now the high bluegill population is holding back the LMB recruitment? Maybe other people will have more ideas as well. Do you think adding some new younger bass would help? I don’t personally don’t see how it would hurt.

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Most cases prove to be more complex, but I'd say it's safe to say too many LMB were removed in that 8-14" range. If the CNBG/BG are left to roam freely in unlimited numbers they are going to wreak LMB reproduction via egg stealers and feeding on freshly hatched LMB fry.
Beings this is way out of my area I'm not accustomed to the stocking rates used in the SE so I'll refrain from futher comment other than it appears your predator base is lacking.

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It is unusual to have a BG heavy, LMB light pond, but can happen when BG numbers get so high that LMB don't spawn successfully.

Also, I'm wondering if part of the problem is F1 inbreeding depression. Most hybrid types exhibit good qualities initially, but this fades over the generations. In fact, hybrids often underperform the original types over the long haul.

Excess cover can be problematic as well. Too many hiding places for forage fish means LMB might struggle to find meals. Take out some of the cover and maybe LMB will do better.

Last edited by anthropic; 04/02/19 03:23 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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I know you said you had all size bg in the pond, but are you sure you have enough bg in the right size range to get the bass pass the 14" range? In my 2 ponds I have seen lots of small bg (2" range) and lots of trophy bg, but very few in between. My goal has always been trophy bg, but i rarely see any mid size bg.

Did your electro survey produce lots of 4-6" bg?


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How many lmb can you catch in an hr or so. Looking at catch rates to maybe get an idea on what is there. And I would not harvest anymore for now. And yes, Frank may be right, so adding some new genetics to the pond sure won't hurt and may in fact help. If it were me, I would look for some young of year lmb, maybe in the 12" range and add some of those to the pond for genetics and adding any smaller would most likely become fish food eaten by your lmb.


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What did the electroshock survey reveal - in detail and what did the ES operator say ? Was there a written report? What is your elevation/winter weather etc.? Were there small LMB fry and 1 year old LMB in the ES survey? Have you done a seine survey? What is the RW/condition of the LMB and BG?

For all - I am a believer in the importance of genetics in fish. They are one part of the plan along with good water quality and plenty of food. But adding new genes is not always a good plan. It can be good , bad or neutral. It depends.

Last edited by ewest; 04/03/19 11:16 AM.















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Thanks for all of this advice. It is all sounding like things that could have happened and things I will try. I will say that I would add 1-2 female lmb every couple years from other ponds to my pond. I had read something on here a long time ago about mixing genetics in with the tiger bass. In an hour of fishing I would say I can catch between 3-4 bass right now. In the past when the tiger bass were 5-10 years old I could catch 15-20 bass of all sizes an hour. What are you guys thoughts on getting more recruitment for bluegill 3-5”? I have a feeder that goes off twice a day and they eat all the food. I have a lot of large trophy bluegill and I can see lots of 1-3” bluegills in the shallow areas. Maybe the 3-5” size range is holding some of these lmb back from growing more than 14-16” long. I took out about 200 large bluegills last summer thinking this might make more room for the 1-3” bluegills to grow into the 3-5” range. I do have 3-5” range bluegill in the pond, but I would say that size range has the lowest numbers in the pond. I wish I could get tilapia in NC. I feel like that would add the extra forage to help push the bass over the edge and let them continue growing. The large bass we used to catch, 6-10 pounds, would often have large trophy brim tails hanging out of the back of their throats.

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I used to work for the pond management company that did the Es survey on my pond. They pulled in and shocked it for me one morning last year on the way to another pond. There was nothing written. I wasn’t personally on the boat but I was standing on the dock watching. The guys who dipped the fish said bluegill populations looked great. Good numbers of most all size ranges. The bass numbers were low. Like I said previously only a couple nice sized bass. Most smaller bass did not look fat in my opinion. The guys who dipped the fish said there was definitely some type of limiting factor holding back the bass but they did not know for sure what it was at that time. They said the results were compatible to a pond over run with crappie. I do not believe that is the case because they only shocked up 1 crappie and I fished with minnows over deep brush piles that week targeting crappie and did not catch any. I feel certain that crappie are not the issue. My pond elevation is around 800’ above sea level. Winters are not too harsh. We get cold temps and some snow occasionally but nothing too extreme. I did not see any lmb fry last year. I saw a couple bass on beds around the edges but they looked like males to me, most were small. I have not figured relative weight ratios but can do that this weekend if someone can tell me how the equation works. I will say the bass I have already caught this year are not fat. They do not look like prespawn bass should look this time of year. Thanks again for all the help.

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Relative Weight Link

Here is the link for the relative weight chart.

The calculation is as follows:

(The weight of your fish divided by the standard weight from the chart) x 100

This will give you a percentage. If over 100, your fish are doing really well. If at 100, your fish are right on track. If under 100, your fish aren't doing as well as they could be and probably need to start removing some.

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I am sensing mixed data. You say that there is a shortage of 3-5 in BG but yet the ESS showed good numbers and condition on all BG sizes. The fact that you are seeing 10 to 16 in. LMB in poor condition and few 3-5 in BG ,is a consistent result, but is inconsistent with the ESS. ESS is only a tool and sample a small % of the population. In some cases they miss sample due to conditions. For example if the crappie have pulled offshore and are deep the survey might miss them entirely. In other cases the data are misinterpreted. I am not saying that is the case just pointing out possibilities. Low LMB recruitment is consistent with very high numbers of 2-5 inch BG and is not common but happens. You could have had a couple of year class failures for LMB which can unbalance a population. If it has been 10 yrs plus since the LMB stocking you may be reaching terminal lifespan on those fish. A seine survey would provide helpful data on status and visual confirmation of LMB fry schools would be helpful.
















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Thank you for the info. I will try to fish more this weekend and hopefully collect more data. I was able to fish yesterday evening for about 1 hour without a scale. I used light tackle to try to catch bluegill and bass. I was able to catch 7 bluegill. Sizes were 9.5”, 9”, 7”, 7”, 6”, and 6”. I caught 2 lmb. One was 12” and another was 7”. I will get a scale and go back sometime this weekend so I can give an accurate relative weight numbers. I will also try targeting crappie in deep water again to see if there is still a possibility of crappie in the pond. I turned the feeder on while I was there and saw lots of action in front of the feeder. Most all looked to be big bluegill in the 6-10” range. Thanks again for all of the info. I hope to find several methods to fix the issue and see if I can get the pond back into the shape it once was with large trophy lmb.

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If the F1 tiger bass I stocked previously have indeed reached their lifespan (which I am sure they have) and died do you think it is wise to stock some new 6-8” lmb?

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That may be an answer but it is to early to tell from what I know. Read up on seine surveys and do that in about a month or so. Also try to get good info on all sizes of BG and LMB.

See pgs. 16-17 at this link.

http://extension.msstate.edu/sites/default/files/publications/publications/p1428_0.pdf

Last edited by ewest; 04/04/19 01:41 PM.















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Wow that’s great information. I will get better info on the fish over the next week or so and post results here. Thank you.

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Hey Ted!
Great to hear from you!
I'd like to see the specific data from the electrofishing survey. If you can send the report with good data, I'll help you figure this out.
My email address is boblusk@outlook.com


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