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The temperature here raised to around 50 degrees on Sunday do I decided to use up some beemoth and red worms that had been fermenting in the fridge for a few weeks.I caught about 30 fish in a couple of hours.I caught 8 6"-9"BG, 1 skinny 18" LMB and the rest were 9" plus golden shiners. One of the GSH was almost 7 ounces. What are the pros and cons of keeping these shiners? They were stocked in June of 2015 so I am guessing that most are sterile because of parasites due to being over 3yrs of age. I remember reading also that they are voracious nest robbers. Are 9" GSH too big to be eaten by a 3 to 4 pound bass? I have seen a few fusiform minnows swimming in shallow areas of the pond which has to be YOY GSH so should I keep or cull the larger shiners? If so,what should my cull parameters be?

Last edited by tubguy; 11/29/18 10:09 AM.
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tubguy,

I would think that a very healthy 18" LMB would be able to consume a 9" GSH. May be the upper limit though. But if the 18" LMB is in a weakened condition ... it may not be able to capture them effectively. I think it might be difficult to catch enough shiners to make big enough dent and I might be reluctant to do it as those 9"+ GSH would be exceptional forage for 20+" LMB.

I have to wonder if the problem is too much competition among your LMB. If you could relieve their numbers sufficiently to improve their condition, they may grow to the size and condition to slay the big GSH. If they can turn the corner, you might grow some really big bass.

If you do cull GSH, I would not throw them away. Feed them to your bass by clipping fins and releasing them back.


Last edited by jpsdad; 11/29/18 11:42 AM.

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Thanks for the reply JPD! I stocked my LMB at 100 per acre in a 3 acre pond in April of 2016.Most of the LMB I catch have a RW between 85-105% but this one was in the low 70 percentile.I do have a few bass (between 15-20 fish) that will eat Aquamax LMB. I cull all LMB under 14" and have also culled 3 of the original stockers due to deformities.This bass put up a good fight so I threw it back.I am thinking that I will remove about 20lbs per acre of LMB with low RW starting this Spring. Do you think 20lb per acre will be enough?

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OK, so much more info. You have a young pond stocked at a rate of 100 LMB/acre. It sounds like your initial stockers have attained weights of ~3 lbs. But at this point it is unclear to me how many of your initial stockers you have culled.

If you are culling 14" and under fish and fishing them hard then only a few, hopefully, will make it through annually. So the worry will be the number of initial stockers still remaining. Obviously you have culled some them so I think you need make an educated guess how many are left. Then you can formulate a culling program that will continue to propel their growth and make room for new trophy recruits that escape your culling efforts. That's really all there is to it. You obviously have a fertile pond that has grown LMB to 3 lbs in just 2 seasons. You have the makings of a trophy pond but it will require that you do not try to grow too many of them.

You may be at a critical juncture with your pond. The carrying capacity is filled and you may have large quantity of 3 lb LMB. Think about how much you want them to grow (ie 1 lb/bass). Then think about what it takes to grow a 3lb bass to 4 lbs.

LBS Forage = 5 * 3 + 10 *1 = 15 lbs

Also think about your BOW how much LMB can it support use your good records to understand how productive it is.

How much forage would it take to grow the surviving stockers and how much forage would it take to grow the fish you harvested. Divide this by 2 (years) and 3(acres) and you have a pretty good sense of how much weight in forage your BOW produced per acre to grow the bass you harvested and that still remain in the BOW. That's the maximum you have to work without additional inputs.

Decide how many 3 lb bass can grow to the annual target weight on the quantity of forage your BOW can produce. Harvest until you think you've attained that number. To go from 3lbs to 4lbs you may need to harvest 33% of those initial stockers still remaining. It is important to recognize that LARGE LMB grow slower because it takes more to maintain them and their conversion of forage is not nearly so good as those that are 12". Because of that, I may have underestimated the percentage you need to cull. Even so, without knowing how many you have already harvested I couldn't venture a guess.

Chunting remarked about a management plan his old clubs used to implement. Harvest all BG caught ... Harvest all bass less than 3 lbs. They grew 10# plus LMB with that simple strategy. Not many LMB got through the 3 lb. gauntlet and the BG harvest reduced the standing weights of those BG that were relatively invulnerable to predation. The issue you may be dealing with is how many of the initial stockers made it 3 lbs? And so you will need to manage a harvest of this initial stocking for at least the next 3 or 4 years. Afterwards diligent harvest of the 14" and under will probably give you good results.

Last edited by jpsdad; 11/29/18 07:25 PM.

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You may be at a critical juncture with your pond. The carrying capacity is filled and you may have large quantity of 3 lb LMB.

That is correct JPD! I presently have only culled about 5 of the original LMB.I also feel that I am very near my carrying capacity and will need to start being aggressive with my culling of fish that do not help me obtain my goals. I had planned on harvesting more fish this Fall but our temps went from the 90's to the 40's in about a 10-14 day span.I would love to add aeration but the way my property lies and the distance to the pond makes it cost prohibitive.

I GUESS IN SUMMARY I NEED TO FISH MORE!

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That's not such a bad thing smile Who doesn't like to fish?

The growth is great so far and will remain good provided there is enough harvest to always keep the LMB biomass below carrying capacity. It doesn't have to be significantly below, but just enough that they don't eat so much that they lower the forage production and are growing.


Last edited by jpsdad; 11/29/18 07:47 PM.

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To harvest all bg caught?? That is the opposite of what I understand to grow large lmb. I have removed a few bg but that was due to having too many bg and could not get lmb reproduction. If you are seeing that, then reduce some bg. But, As I understand it's all about forage, forage and more forage grows large lmb with the exception of too many lmb in a given body of water. So, keep the 9" GSH and remove every lmb 14" or less. Leaving some of those 3lb lmb to grow and eat those 9 inch shiners. Ponds are regional and different regions have different paths to growing fish. So, Indiana may be different from here in E. Texas. Sounds like you have been doing something right smile


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Originally Posted By: TGW1
To harvest all bg caught?? That is the opposite of what I understand to grow large lmb...


Yeah that was my reaction too but you have to admit they had a lot of success doing it.

It wasn't clear to me what harvest all BG caught meant, but I took it to mean fish large enough to filet and eat. As I thought about it actually did make sense from the standpoint of forage production. Taking larger BG reduces the size structure and increases the number of BG males nesting. It frees space for BG in the 4" to 6" range. The result, I guess, is there isn't as many 9" to 11" BG. Also, primary production conversion is much more efficient to 6" than it is from 6" to 8" or 10". Whatever convention it seems to fly against ... it is difficult to argue with success. It would be great if chunting were to chime in with some detail on how they harvested BG. In any event, success can hardly be measured over the first two or three years. Those privately managed BOWs chunting referred to were implementing a long term plan that works over the long haul. It is wise to listen to their story.

Here is chunting's remark about management:

Originally Posted By: chunting
Most of the ponds and small lakes I fish in Georgia and South Carolina have a simple management plan. Keep all bass under 3 pounds and all panfish. Keeping a trophy to mount is allowed.


the thread is here: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=496860

Originally Posted By: TGW1
I have removed a few bg but that was due to having too many bg and could not get lmb reproduction. If you are seeing that, then reduce some bg.


It may surprise you to learn that the condition you describe is optimum for LMB growth rates. Of course you get no recruitment. But if one purchased 2 to 4 BG acclimated F1 females per acre annually, it might be easier to implement than culling LMB.


Last edited by jpsdad; 11/29/18 07:42 PM.

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Great largemouth bass management ideas so far for moving the LMB past the 3 lb mark toward continued annual growth. You should be able next year to determine if you have harvested enough bass by checking growth increments of the largest original stocker bass which should gain 1 to 1.3 lbs next year in Indiana (midwest). This weight gain amounts to 2 to 2.5 ounces per month (Apr-Oct). FYI an increase of an adult LMB for each added pound usually equates to close to 1.1"length increase (~4mm/month; Apr-Oct). When your bass are not getting this annual growth they are likely not getting the proper amount and size of forage.

Return to this same thread regularly to keep us updated about your bass growing project. We are interested in your progress.

I will put this thread in the LMB management archive topic

For monitoring the progress of your stocker bass toward 9 lb, here are the details of length growth per each increased pound (using standard weight).
3lb= 17.5" Lgn increase
4lb= 19.1" 1.6"
5lb= 20.5" 1.4"
6lb= 21.7" 1.2"
7lb= 22.8" 1.1"
8lb= 23.8" 1.0"
9lb= 24.7" 0.9"

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/01/18 09:14 PM.

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Thanks for your reply Bill! I will give more background on my pond in a day or two.I usually weigh and measure most of the fish I catch. I will make an effort to document more.I have a few shooters and a few skinny fish but I feel the majority of my fish are somewhere in the middle.

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Given the size progression of 1 1b per annum with an ultimate weight of 9 lbs we might consider this ultimate weight to be achieved in the 11th or 12th year. So a suitable question is, "How many 3 lb LMB do I need to recruit every year?" It is equally suitable to ask the question, "How many 3lb bass must I limit recruitment to?" If you have a given number of LMB in each year's recruitment and assuming no cropping of LMB >3lbs will occur until they die in 11th year, one may construct a spreadsheet that provides an estimate of the annual forage needs of the 3lb+ trophy selected LMB. Below is a spreadsheet that outlines the demand that I think might work with tubguy's BOW.

In the spreadsheet you will find that if limited to 3 LMB/acre/year, in the seventh year, there will be 21 LMB/ACRE >3 lbs and averaging 6 LBS. A highly successful trophy BOW IMHO, particularly for a northern pond. These will require 675 lbs of forage annually for this segment of the population. The scenario assumes that one harvests 9 lb LMB or they die in that year without consuming a lot of forage.

Now the question of how many of the original stockers to harvest before the next growing season gets into full swing. Let's make an estimate of how much forage tubguy's BOW produced in the last year. To some degree, this is a WAG but not entirely WAG. We have the benefit that his BOW is two years old with a known number of LMB stocked at inception. We could use typical first year mortality to estimate the number of original stocked LMB surviving and from this number estimate the forage production required to grow the LMB to their current size. I will assume that that 80% of the original stocking survived the first year and since he has only harvested 5 of the original stocking ... I will ignore the harvest figures.

So the figure is 80 LMB/ACRE. I will assume 1.5 lb for first year growth and 1.5 lbs for second year growth. Tubguy chime in if this is wrong. So over the past year forage production is estimated:

LBS FORAGE= 80*1.5*5 + 80 *1.5*10 = 1800 lbs/acre

OK ... so this is a BIG number and it vastly exceeds the standing weight of bluegill. Even so it highlights how productive a heavily cropped BOW can be. Up to now there are no trophies and the majority of BG have been cropped at 2"-4". As these were cropped, more rapidly replaced them and indeed a multiple of BG carrying capacity was produced. This tells me the BOW could probably support the grow out in the spreadsheet below. Even so, it is important to recognize that the LMB of the projected grow out need 4" to 7" BG and the BOW cannot produce the same poundage of these annually. Right now, the BOW needs to produce BG in the 4" - 5" range. This need for larger BG will reduce the production in lbs of forage because BG also have maintenance requirements and convert food better when they are smaller. So what number to use? I don't know. But a smaller number should be used than the 1800 lbs produced this year and I will assume 80 percent of this year's production or 1440 lbs /acre.

Now to grow 80 LMB/ACRE from 3 lbs to 4 lbs, what will it take in forage?

LBS_FORAGE = 80*3*5 + 80*1*10 = 2000 lbs

If we take our estimate of forage production and divided it by that required we get .72 and if we multiply that number by the 80 we get 57 fish. Based on this combination of assumptions and evidence we can construct a plan that is an "educated guess" which may only be a little better than a WAG but it is a plan based on known principles and reasonable assumptions.

If it were me, I would be just a bit more aggressive to factor in the classes of LMB that are in the recruitment stage. I really do think an appropriate number to harvest would be 30 LMB per acre of the original stocking(assuming that ~ 80 LMB/acre still remain)

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Bass Population Structure.xlsx (5.65 KB, 220 downloads)
Last edited by jpsdad; 11/30/18 11:42 AM.

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A one pound bass, or even some considerably smaller, can eat the fattest of 9" shiners...The bass will just swim with a tail out it's mouth for an hour or 2 till the LMB's pharyngeal teeth grind he shiner up...if a LMB can get something all into it's mouth, it will and can eat it.

Bill Cody and I stuffed a 9" YP into a 10" LMB...only the YP tail was visible....it was a bit sadistic, but was "research"....

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Assuming jpsdad's calcs are fairly accurate and at the current rate, I suspect many of the bass will soon hit a growth increase wall which is common for many ponds. Growth limit will be due to "too many hogs feeding at the trough". Based on Greg Grimes work of stocking and growing big bass too many original bass per acre were stocked. Grimes' LMB stock rate to quickly start your journey of growing trophies is 50 LMB/ac. Remember that 1/2 of the 50 will be males who cannot attain trophy status. Plus there has been bass recruitment to increase the crowding influence of predators.
To keep the largest bass growing optimally supplimental stocking of tilapia and trout would likely be needed. See G.Grimes website for concepts of growing trophy LMB: lakework.com
https://lakework.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/sdafs-trophy-lmb.pdf

https://lakework.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Grow-Bigger-Bass.pdf

https://lakework.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/How-to-Grow-Big-Bass.pdf

https://lakework.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/DIY-Hawg-Pond.pdf

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/17/23 04:43 PM.

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Thanks for the replies to my post.This post contains so much great information!
A little history of my pond.My pond is in southern Indiana,it it three acres in size and was at full pool on June 6th 2015.approximately two acres are less than 7ft deep.The deepest area is the borrow pit which is right at twenty foot deep I have three shallow coves,an island and a lot of shoreline.The pond is 520ft long.I have American pondweed and yellow water primrose covering 50%-60% of the shoreline.I have added pea gravel to a couple of areas for spawning.My fish stocking is as follows:

June 2015: 12 lbs GSH and 5 lbs FHM

October 2015: 1200 3" BG and 800 3" RES

April 2016: 300 5" LMB

October 2016: 100 5" HSB ( I have not seen one since that day)

October 2017: 9 10" triploid grass carp and 5 10" paddlefish

I have some male and female BG that are 8" to 9" long.I have a decent amount of YOY BG ranging from 2" to 4". I caught a RES in July of 2017 that was 11" long and weighed 13.6 ounces but most of the RES I catch are 6"-8" long. I usually catch LMB in the 3 lb range. I have never caught a HSB .

MY top priority ,after it being a swimming pond,is for the pond to have a good catch rate.It is a great day when my two boys have 6 friends come over for a cookout and everyone catches 15-20 fish in a couple of hours.Catching a 2.5 lb LMB is fun for teenagers on a Zebco 33. My second goal is to have some nice sized fillet ready BG.I am trying to determine a slot limit for good eating while allowing my larger BG to spawn ( I would love to have some 1 lb BG).My third goal is to have some LMB in the 3 lb to 5 lb.. okay maybe 6lb range.I know catching a 9 lb LMB would be awesome but I would rather have a higher catch rate. Fourth goal is to catch some HSB before they go belly up.I know this sounds like a tall order but I know pond management is full of trade offs and compromise.With my goals in mind I plan on culling 6-8" BG and RES,all LMB under 14" and larger LMB with a RW less than 90%.IS this a good start or should I automatically remove 30 per acre of my original stockers? I do want to avoid skinny stunted bass.
Bill I think you summed up my situation fairly well. I am at a wall.This is a fairly new pond and I am very new at the whole pond management thing. I know years 4-7 are my best opportunity to have a great pond. I have became a pond nerd and tend to worry more about my fish than if my socks match anymore!The Pond Boss forum and magazine has provided a wealth of information and saved me thousands of dollars.Rex, I never would of thought that a 1 lb LMB could eat a 9" GSH. Thanks guys for all the valuable information! I follow the forum daily but seldom make a post.I will update this post as I observe changes in my pond.

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Hey, sounds like a fun pond! You are the first person I know of who uses paddlefish in their BOW. How are they doing?

Re larger LMB, you likely need to actively remove undersized fish. I'm doing the same, now have taken out 79 since October. Still have lots to go, though.

I had somewhat larger HSB stocked about six months ago and have caught a few, usually around the dock where a feeder is located. When it goes off, both LMB and HSB come for chow. If you don't have a feeder, I'd recommend one if your budget allows. Texas Hunter has been really good in my experience, you don't have to be there every day. In your neck of the woods you probably would want to wait for the water to warm up enough in April/May for fish to come shallow before feeding.


Last edited by anthropic; 11/30/18 11:30 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Great background on the pond. I would bet through the winter the edges of the Borrow pit will be concentrating big BG. 8" is very good two year growth. You could break 9" next year.

Originally Posted By: tubguy
Catching a 2.5 lb LMB is fun for teenagers on a Zebco 33. My second goal is to have some nice sized fillet ready BG.I am trying to determine a slot limit for good eating while allowing my larger BG to spawn ( I would love to have some 1 lb BG).My third goal is to have some LMB in the 3 lb to 5 lb.. okay maybe 6lb range.I know catching a 9 lb LMB would be awesome but I would rather have a higher catch rate.


With your goals I think I would harvest all 5lb LMB I caught. Some will remain to make 6 lbs or larger. 5 lb LMB requires 25 lbs of forage maintenance and harvesting will make space for other and keep the BOW producing gains on remaining fish. After your cull next year though you still may need a cull one more year particularly if you want to bring on new generations of fish that will achieve similar weights. You should calculate that culling plan from your growth next year. I played around with your goals in an excel spreadsheet and came up with an estimate of how limited recruitment might reach your goals on a sustainable basis. The plan involves selecting 10 - 12 LMB females/acre/acre for grow out. Basically you need to be able to identify females which can be done >10". Fin clip 10/acre/year and harvest any unclipped fish > 14". As you cull less than 14" fish try to make a determination of sex and concentrate on culling males. You might consider a clip in a different location to identify released females that might be selected later. If you don't get enough recruitment, purchase 12-14" females to fill the gap. Harvest the 5 lbers to make room for the continuing cycle.

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Bass Population StructureII.xlsx (5.77 KB, 189 downloads)
Last edited by jpsdad; 12/01/18 08:00 AM.

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Anthropic, I currently hand feed Purina MVP and Purina MVP pellets. I have considered a TH feeder. My paddle fish have also been elusive. I have not seen them since they were stocked. I have read that the PF usually stay pretty hidden until year three. I have also read that RAH stocked a few and they died over a cold winter.RAH is just an hour or so north of me. But I also know PF are raised in KY about 1.5 hours south of me.

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JPD thanks for your reply. Your spreadsheet looks great. It is hard to imagine that a 5 lbs LMB needs that many pounds of forage just to maintain its size! Your recommendations really have me thinking. I will need to hone my skills at sexing LMB though. I know a well balanced pond can be tough.

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Tubguy

Don't be alarmed if you don't see your HSB or your PF. In my experience Anthropic is right on with HSB. If you are feeding them on a regular basis they are the fish that are exploding under the floating feed. I suggest you make a feeding ring and anchor it out in the open water away from shore.I need a boat to get to mine. The HSB are open water fish and they seem to take this feed better than from my rings closer to shore.

As for PF,I stocked them in 2007 and never saw them again for six years when they swam under/around my boat while fishing in the fall. The water was clearer then and they looked like sharks. Their predominant color is black so they are difficult to detect in the spring/summer when my plankton bloomed and water clarity was low,

I was going to harvest them this winter but,sadly a sudden lack of oxygen at least that is what two PF biologists think happened,caused me to lose 24 PF between 35 to 50 lbs in two days! No other fish were killed and I never had a fish kill in 34 years since my pond was built.
Sorry for my rambling but I needed to get that off my chest. In my experience,your fish are there and doing OK as long as you have good fertility. good luck..

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Originally Posted By: tubguy
JPD thanks for your reply. Your spreadsheet looks great. It is hard to imagine that a 5 lbs LMB needs that many pounds of forage just to maintain its size! ...


Perfectly fine to question this. I question it from time to time. But there is research supporting the need of 5lbs - 7lbs wet forage per lb of broodfish. This is a hatchery setting ... might be over or less than what fish in a pond need.

With regard to estimating forage production, it may be overestimated, but because culling requirements are calculated from the same assumptions, it won't affect a cull estimate by much by changing numbers. For example, with maintenance of 3#Forage/#LMB and growth of 6#Forage/#LMB_Gained. I get the same estimate for cull.

A couple of ways to look at maintenance. If an LMB needs to consume an average of 1.36% of its body weight daily for maintenance then it needs 5 lbs Forage/lbs/year. The dry weight of 5 lbs of forage is only around 1.25 lbs. I think this broadly referenced maintenance is a reasonable estimate though I also think it probably fits a normal distribution where it can also be said ... it depends and this is a ball park mean requirement.


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Bernie how big is your pond and how many paddlefish did you stock? Have you caught any HSB? I look forward to hooking into some of my 2 year old HSB.

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My pond is almost 3 acres with 3 coves and an island.I stocked 52 PF eleven yrs ago when they were around 8-12"in length. Thru the yrs. about four were found floating but I was never able to determine the cause. They all were around 20 to 25 lbs.Like people,some die quicker than others.

Yes,HSB have been caught since I stocked them,four yrs.ago.In fact,we caught a 21" healthy one just last week. They hit like a freight train and pull like hell. I'm hoping to raise them 10-12 lbs.

I stock around twenty-five ,5-7" each yr. but I cage raise them for a month or so and then release them into the pond. Most are caught around the feeding rings but we try not to catch them in the summer as they will die quickly in the warm water,(just like the true striped bass do).

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Sorry to hear about the PF(paddle fish) kill. Those are monsters!

By the way, are they good to eat?

Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/01/18 09:12 PM. Reason: paddlefish for references

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 105
B
Lunker
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Lunker
B
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 105
The filets are somewhat bland to me but they can be seasoned in many ways and are now being served in high class restaurants in louisville,lexington and cincinnati, cities near me. The females ripe eggs are processed into caviar and that is were the money is.


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