Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Muddy water MUD in KOI POND

I just built a brand new 6000 gallon koi pond. It has 2 skimmerfilters, a waterfall filter and a large biological filter (bog pond), 50% of the flow goes through the biofilter and 50% through the waterfall filter. It circulates 10,000 gallons per hour. I haven't had a chance to landscape so it is red dirt clay around it. I have hard water and have been struggling with High PH since install but my water was crystal clear. My Ph tested above 8 before the rains. I just ordered a PH testing pen because it seems that my pond test kit (liquid) never confers with my PH test strips so I wanted something more accurate. (Don't have it yet but think my test kit reads high as it puts too big of drops in). At any rate we had zero rain all winter and now have had 4 days of solid downpours and my pond is chocolate brown. A clear glass of it looks pretty clear and nothing settles out. From researching your site it seems that I likely have a charged water problem with suspended clay. I am interpreting that I need Gypsum. The question is, will it harm my fish? Would Vinegar work instead? How much would I need to add of Gypsum and where do I get it? Is there any way to filter this stuff out? I can't see my fish so I don't know how they are faring however I don't have any floaters so I suppose that is a good sign! Any help is greatly appreciated.

I know little or nothing about Koi ponds, but I know there are some fascinating discussion forums specifically for koi enthusiasts. Have you tried any of those yet?

Here's one that really cool.

http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi

Maybe someone else here has a koi pond and will chime in.

Good luck!

Jan,

Welcome to Pondboss. We build Koi ponds here in Western North Carolina. It sounds like you have done a great job in construction of your pond.

If you did have wash in from clay, it would be more of a reddish color. I assume you have rocked the entire bottom of the pond too. Your problems are a combination of pH, maybe some wash in and low amounts of bacteria colinization. Your pond is just aging.

A quick cure for this at least up here in NC is a bag of Carbon. We use a mesh bag and put in 15 lbs of carbon directly ontop of your foam pad inside your skimmer. Then put the colletion basket back in place. This makes sure all your water is passed through the carbon as it circulates. You can also place that bag inside your Bio-falls too.

Contact us on Monday and I will calculate the correct amount you will require for your 6,000 gallon pond.

Again, welcome to Pondboss and stay with us. There are post from time to time specific to koi.

I am a little perplexed as I posted a question very similar to the one after mine on water clarity and I got only 2 responses compared to 13? It seems that because it is Koi and not game fish that nobody wishes to take a stab at the problem. Can somebody please help?? I telephoned the person who said they would help and can't get them. They do not return my calls. I have high alkalinity and very high PH and an obvious charged water problem as nothing settles and my water is the color of coffee with cream. It was crystal clear until the wash in from 5 days of rain. (in the future I won't say I have Koi). I'm pretty sure from reading all the links from other people's posts and responses to other people's problems that Gypsum is my solution. I need to know where to find it in Southwest Missouri (80 miles from the Arkansas border in Branson), how to apply it and how much. I really appreciate anybodys help I can get. I just installed a $10,000 pond and can't even see my fish!

jan :

Sorry about the replies. Welcome. The shortage of replies is I am sure because most here do not know much about Koi ponds , how they are built or managed. If you want to do a search under headings muddy water on the intro page or use the search function under the topic and look for gypsum. Gypsum can be purchased in the form of sheetrock wall board. Most all home improvement stores have it. Do not use the pink colored type and try to be sure there are no added fibers as binders. It can be broken up and ground to small pieces and put in. The way to find out how much is to take a water sample in a jar --say a quart --measure out small amount of ground up gyp. measure it and add to see when it clears. Then do the calculations to see how much for the vol of the pond. There may be other options. I will post a link to some info. Read these esp. the last one. Good luck.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000073

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000066

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000068

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000049

EWEST Thanks for the post. I had read these links before as I've studied and studied. My initial concerns were safety for the fish and the question about the fibers, quanity and how to apply and my initial question was I wondered if I could just put it in my bog pond (this is a totally separate pond that acts as a settling chamber and provides biological activity) that the water goes into from the main pond, after passing through UV (50% actually goes there but eventually (in the hour) all the pond will cycle through there, perhaps even in large sheets where I wouldn't have to worry about fiber additives or filtering it out?? Or do you thing it is the dissolving of the gypsum in the water that makes it work?? It would be perfect if I could make it coagulate all up in the bog pond. Mud up there is great or would be fine. These were my thoughts, what do you think?

Don't know. You know as much as we do if you read the links. I don't know if it would mess up your system. You might try the link that Bruce provided to the koi forums they probably deal with these systems much more and would know how to fix the problem.

Jan, please don't take the lack of responses for rudeness. Very few of us have ever been around Koi. We just don't have an idea how to respond. Cary is a good bet because he knows water. Give him a call Monday and try the link that Bruce provided.

Good luck!

Jan,

I sent you an email after you emailed me. And yes not many koi or garden pond people here so they just don't know. This site really is the most helpful site I know of and the folks are very civil except for may one individual that I have locked horns with.

As I said with your high PH and alkalinity I don't believe gypsum is the best choice. I would worry you could raise it even higher and it may not be effective in hard water. I believe Cary may have the answer or even alum. However I will find out tonight or tomorrow from an RAS farmer if you haven't anything to worry about with your biological filter with alum.

There are several products similar to the one that we sell for koi ponds called Pond Water Clear. Apply 1oz per 90 gals h20 once every 24 hours until water clears. It binds up with the sediment and drops it out. Won't change Ph. Once particles are bound, they should either get caught in a filter or need to be siphoned out from the bottom. We usually recommend turnover in koi ponds once every hour. I'm not sure if you would have too much water movement to have the particles settle on the bottom.
keystonehatcheries.com

jan - I assume that the pond has a liner. Correct? Most koi ponds are not built so the above ground sides slope into pond and contribute watershed drainage. I gather this storm water drainage is what you indicated in the first post as the cause of your water clarity problem; correct? With your existing water turnover rate due to filtration / pumping, the clay particles will have a hard time settling. Answer these two questions and I can elaborate more.

Thanks for the posts. It is a new pond and we haven't finished or started landscaping yet so yes at the present (if it rains) we have a watershed problem. We had no rain for 6 months and then got pounded. We had 110 tornados touch down and 200 homes destroyed in the last bout so I don't know if my landscaping would have saved the pond from what happened. I always turnover about 1.5 times per hour. I have a big surface area and by rights the pond should have been 12000 gallons, but rock caused a few unplanned shelves. I know what the books say and my dissolved oxygen is good and I never lose fish, and have never had a turbidity problem in the past. I have a pond liner and that is it, except for the rocks that I used for coping. (and the rocks in my bog pond) As to the "bottled Koi products", I sell them as well. I appreciate that recommendation and picked some up today and applied it. I wish you had said you used it often with success as reselling & using them for a real problem like this can be two different things. I have not found many of them to be much good, with a few exceptions like the Microbe lift line. From the research I need a product with a good positive charge, Gypsum +2, Aluminum sulfate (alum) +3, my water is too hard and alkaline for gypsum so I bought Alum and put it in a bucket test and put the "Bottled Pond Clear" (it didn't say anything about what it is or if it has a charge but said it would coagulate suspended dirt in a few hours) in the pond. 24 hours later my pond is still the same with zero improvement. I also cut one pump off for those that believe it is because I circulate too much water. One hour later the bucket is crystal clear with a very small amound of silt on the bottom. I truly am amazed at how little settled out, but when you got a clear jar of it though, it looked pretty clear with nothing settling out in 2 weeks with zero movement while the pond has literally zero visibility. If you drop something in it, it is visually gone the second it leaves the surface. (versus crystal clear before the storms) I think and hope these two posts really sum up the problem and the solution: http://aquanic.org/publicat/usda_rac/efs/srac/460fs.pdf; http://www.perigee.net/~jrjohns/aluma.html

I have a lot invested in these fish and am afraid to dose with what might be safe. I would sure like to hear from anybody that has actually applied aluminum sulfate to a fish pond to clear a charged water/suspended solids problem as I believe the bucket test surely proved this to be the problem and alum the answer. I got my PH pen in today and the rains helped my ph problem a little, it is 7.9. The alkalinity is over 240 and the water is hard so I don't know how easily that PH might drop and that would be the risk with Alum. I hope the alkalinity and hardness will shield me from that. Obviously I want to use as little as possible and would like to know its impact on the biological filter. I'm hoping Cecil will learn more about it at the seminar. Thanks to Cecil and all of you for guiding me to the right conclusion. Without the information posted here I would have never solved it with the hobby forums as the scientific knowledge isn't there. Many don't care about these aspects. For me, Koi keeping is an art and a science. That is what I love about it. I do have one other question for you science gurus out there, how can alkalinity by definition be the opposite of base and you can have very high alkaline water that is also very basic?