Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
victortechy, fishengelbert, Woody Jones, Joe7328, Reno Guerra
18,475 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,938
Posts557,717
Members18,476
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,493
ewest 21,489
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,134
Who's Online Now
6 members (Theo Gallus, Snipe, Lake8, Theeck, Augie, FishinRod), 812 guests, and 318 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Hey guys, new guy here. Have a new pond we built this past summer and just getting to finish it now. It's about an acre. Basic shape is an oval. One end has a cement bank/landing for parties, 1 cemented runway for all the incoming water from run off and one cemented spillway and the rest is dirt.

The HUGE problem here is our soil. It's nasty and I mean nasty red clay. The old pond would be red for months at a time, plus when you went in it, you'd sink 6+" into the mud. Trying to make a family fun pond with some fish. There will be a zip line tower on the one end and will zip across about 280' of the pond. Plus will have a diving board off of the zip line tower. Max pond depth is 12'

We have dug down about 3' 6' around the edges out into the pond from 10 to 15' and we decreases this by about 6" as we go into the pond. This saddle will be for sand. then it tapers down fairly quickly to the bottom.

The question is do we go with a liner of some sort or I was thinking of rotoilling the top 4' to 6' of the soil and adding portland cement. Do this 3 or 4 times with the top layer just being portland. I'd get 400 bags or so. I was thinking I would plastic/vinyl the saddle we made regardless and just cement the angled parts.

Or

Just go with the repurposed billboard vinyl? The sides are about 60' to the middle, so would need to add a few widths down the middle, then drape the pieces under the sand down the sides to cover the bottom pieces.

Also on the used vinyls, how long do they hold up typically?

Leaking isn't even possible, so don't need it to be water tight.

Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

Last edited by Sledgehammer; 11/19/17 10:38 PM.
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,088
Likes: 96
S
Offline
S
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6,088
Likes: 96
Welcome to the forum. Sounds like you have a really neat project going on.

I have no experience mixing portland cement with clay but I question its utility in that purpose.

I do have experience with rock lining on very small ponds (1/20th acre) and rock shore line protection on my main 3 acre pond. We have limestone quarries within reasonable distance so crushed limestone is relatively reasonable in price. It might work to just line the pond with a couple inches of crushed limestone. It would take a lot of truck loads but in our area we could get a ton of limestone for around the cost of an 80# bag of Portland cement. Crushed rock around the perimeter of the pond will help with wave erosion which can lead to turbid water. It is something to consider if you have a rock quarry or river gravel source close enough to make trucking and cost economical.

I cleared up the turbid water in my old pond with ag lime but it does not work for all types of clay situations. There are other ways to deal with turbid water such as alum but I will let others with that experience talk about that.

Here is a thread about rock lining the shore line.
Bank erosion and rock lining

This is a thread about my forage pond and the link takes you to the part of the thread where there are pictures of how I rock lined this very tiny 1/20th acre pond. forage pond thread where pictures of lined pond are Without doing any figuring at all and just taking a wild guess it might cost ten thousand dollars to line an acre pond with rock like I did this pond. But I am pretty sure it would take care of your clay turbidity problems. If you follow the thread on down there are some more pictures showing the pond full after a large rain where it appears a little turbid (rock and clay eroded off a portion of the bank as it is filling) then even further down on the thread shows how it clears up.

There will be others that have other experiences with turbid waters with other and probably better ideas. This is just some of what I have done. I have no experience with plastic liners so will not comment on that.


Last edited by snrub; 11/20/17 05:11 AM.

John

I subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
F
Offline
F
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
In regards to the billboard tarps:
I cover about 100 to 150 cords of wood on a constant basis with them. I find the wind the worse enemy. If they can be fastened down properly, I have had them go 6 to 8 years without ant deterioration from the sun. They could go longer I suppose, but at that point they are usually removed and changed to somewhere else. I would think under water, the sun would have even less affect on them. They do have holes in them, but as you stated, that shouldn't be a problem in your case. Surface is pretty slick on them, so any sand that gets on a slope with them will very likely be at the very bottom quickly.

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Originally Posted By: snrub
Welcome to the forum. Sounds like you have a really neat project going on.

I have no experience mixing portland cement with clay but I question its utility in that purpose.

I do have experience with rock lining on very small ponds (1/20th acre) and rock shore line protection on my main 3 acre pond. We have limestone quarries within reasonable distance so crushed limestone is relatively reasonable in price. It might work to just line the pond with a couple inches of crushed limestone. It would take a lot of truck loads but in our area we could get a ton of limestone for around the cost of an 80# bag of Portland cement. Crushed rock around the perimeter of the pond will help with wave erosion which can lead to turbid water. It is something to consider if you have a rock quarry or river gravel source close enough to make trucking and cost economical.

I cleared up the turbid water in my old pond with ag lime but it does not work for all types of clay situations. There are other ways to deal with turbid water such as alum but I will let others with that experience talk about that.

Here is a thread about rock lining the shore line.
Bank erosion and rock lining

This is a thread about my forage pond and the link takes you to the part of the thread where there are pictures of how I rock lined this very tiny 1/20th acre pond. forage pond thread where pictures of lined pond are Without doing any figuring at all and just taking a wild guess it might cost ten thousand dollars to line an acre pond with rock like I did this pond. But I am pretty sure it would take care of your clay turbidity problems. If you follow the thread on down there are some more pictures showing the pond full after a large rain where it appears a little turbid (rock and clay eroded off a portion of the bank as it is filling) then even further down on the thread shows how it clears up.

There will be others that have other experiences with turbid waters with other and probably better ideas. This is just some of what I have done. I have no experience with plastic liners so will not comment on that.



Thanks

Have thought about rocking it. We have the trucks to haul it ourselves, but no quarries locally. Closest is a 3 hour turn, so then it becomes very expensive.

Have read up on the Alum, that can be done also, but one would still have the mud issue when entering and exiting the pond.

My concern on the liner is how long they last. I don't want to have to be doing this again in 10 years time.

Sand can be bought just a few miles away, so will use sand to line the outside edges of the pond and can add as needed over time.

That is why I was thinking about the portland. It doesn't need to be all that hard, just hard enough to be firm.

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 146
C
Offline
C
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 146
I have to chuckle a bit at your optimism... "leaking isn't even possible"

Lots of folks here with lots of good clay but still due to improper compaction, improper construction of the dam, the base keyway, etc have a leaks.

You could consider a sand layer on top of the clay and then adding a polymer that grabs the granules of sand and binds them together into a hard surface (research soilfloc on the forum)

Of you could do as you suggested and add some type of setting cement.

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
In regards to the billboard tarps:
I cover about 100 to 150 cords of wood on a constant basis with them. I find the wind the worse enemy. If they can be fastened down properly, I have had them go 6 to 8 years without ant deterioration from the sun. They could go longer I suppose, but at that point they are usually removed and changed to somewhere else. I would think under water, the sun would have even less affect on them. They do have holes in them, but as you stated, that shouldn't be a problem in your case. Surface is pretty slick on them, so any sand that gets on a slope with them will very likely be at the very bottom quickly.


How many mills is the billboard tarps you think?

Thanks

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
I have to chuckle a bit at your optimism... "leaking isn't even possible"

Lots of folks here with lots of good clay but still due to improper compaction, improper construction of the dam, the base keyway, etc have a leaks.

You could consider a sand layer on top of the clay and then adding a polymer that grabs the granules of sand and binds them together into a hard surface (research soilfloc on the forum)

Of you could do as you suggested and add some type of setting cement.


Lol, yeah, I shouldn't have said that, as now it will....,.

With that said, it was nearly full all summer and there was no bleed out below the damn.

My woman and I talked about lining it all with sand, but fear that the sand will not hold on the slops, as there is nothing to bind it, as it doesn't pack like clay does. We had also talked of using a pre-mixed sand/portland mix and putting it over the clay and mixing it in.

I'll look up soilfloc.

Thanks

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
Soilfloc won't solidify clay. I put it all around the base of my dam in March of 2016 and couldn't tell any difference in the consistency of the clay.

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
J
Offline
J
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,424
Likes: 19
If you put down tarps they will get extremely slick with a thin coating of algae. I used old carpet in my pond to keep erosion to a minimum while it filled. It also has the good effect of holding structure such as rocks and gravel out of the mud. I suggest finding some old pile carpet and put sand on that.

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 146
C
Offline
C
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 146
John F, I wasn't thinking adding the soilfloc to the clay, I was going to have him add the sand first. The finer the better (even bentonite if it was cheaply available) then add the soilfloc above that. With fine particles the soilfloc locks them together (providing, PROVIDING that the water can flow down through the sand to pull the polymer into the inter-spaces down below the surface) I'm sure if added on top of clay it would just make a slippery surface on the clay. But you are right, if the sand is setting on top of the clay and water isn't moving down through the sand, not sure how it would work. Depends on how many inches of sand is put down.

My sand layer on top gets like concrete with the soilfloc in it. you almost have to drill holes to get fence posts pounded in. Then around the post the soil keeps locking tighter and tighter so that you can't get the post back out too smile

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
John F, I wasn't thinking adding the soilfloc to the clay, I was going to have him add the sand first. The finer the better (even bentonite if it was cheaply available) then add the soilfloc above that. With fine particles the soilfloc locks them together (providing, PROVIDING that the water can flow down through the sand to pull the polymer into the inter-spaces down below the surface) I'm sure if added on top of clay it would just make a slippery surface on the clay. But you are right, if the sand is setting on top of the clay and water isn't moving down through the sand, not sure how it would work. Depends on how many inches of sand is put down.

My sand layer on top gets like concrete with the soilfloc in it. you almost have to drill holes to get fence posts pounded in. Then around the post the soil keeps locking tighter and tighter so that you can't get the post back out too smile



Hmmm. But would it hold the sand in place on top of the clay?

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
F
Offline
F
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
Originally Posted By: Sledgehammer
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
In regards to the billboard tarps:
I cover about 100 to 150 cords of wood on a constant basis with them. I find the wind the worse enemy. If they can be fastened down properly, I have had them go 6 to 8 years without ant deterioration from the sun. They could go longer I suppose, but at that point they are usually removed and changed to somewhere else. I would think under water, the sun would have even less affect on them. They do have holes in them, but as you stated, that shouldn't be a problem in your case. Surface is pretty slick on them, so any sand that gets on a slope with them will very likely be at the very bottom quickly.


How many mills is the billboard tarps you think?

Thanks



11 Mil, 9oz. No less. I get heavier when I can, but it's not always available.

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
Originally Posted By: Sledgehammer
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
In regards to the billboard tarps:
I cover about 100 to 150 cords of wood on a constant basis with them. I find the wind the worse enemy. If they can be fastened down properly, I have had them go 6 to 8 years without ant deterioration from the sun. They could go longer I suppose, but at that point they are usually removed and changed to somewhere else. I would think under water, the sun would have even less affect on them. They do have holes in them, but as you stated, that shouldn't be a problem in your case. Surface is pretty slick on them, so any sand that gets on a slope with them will very likely be at the very bottom quickly.


How many mills is the billboard tarps you think?

Thanks



11 Mil, 9oz. No less. I get heavier when I can, but it's not always available.



Ok, thanks.

Where do you get yours from?

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
F
Offline
F
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
As close to you as you can. Shipping will kill you on those things. Sometimes I have even found them locally on craigs list. Check the internet. There seems to be various suppliers around the country that stays pretty consistent. If I know I am going by a supplier during a trip, I will even stop in to pick up as many as I can. It cuts costs by half.

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Originally Posted By: fish n chips
As close to you as you can. Shipping will kill you on those things. Sometimes I have even found them locally on craigs list. Check the internet. There seems to be various suppliers around the country that stays pretty consistent. If I know I am going by a supplier during a trip, I will even stop in to pick up as many as I can. It cuts costs by half.



Would $75 be too much for a 14' x 48'?

thanks

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Originally Posted By: canyoncreek
John F, I wasn't thinking adding the soilfloc to the clay, I was going to have him add the sand first. The finer the better (even bentonite if it was cheaply available) then add the soilfloc above that. With fine particles the soilfloc locks them together (providing, PROVIDING that the water can flow down through the sand to pull the polymer into the inter-spaces down below the surface) I'm sure if added on top of clay it would just make a slippery surface on the clay. But you are right, if the sand is setting on top of the clay and water isn't moving down through the sand, not sure how it would work. Depends on how many inches of sand is put down.

My sand layer on top gets like concrete with the soilfloc in it. you almost have to drill holes to get fence posts pounded in. Then around the post the soil keeps locking tighter and tighter so that you can't get the post back out too smile



Hey Canyon, I understand on how it works with sandy ground, but if I put the sand on top, used sollfloc, would the sand stay where it was put, or would it slide down the clay?

Thanks

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,182
Likes: 29
L
Offline
L
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,182
Likes: 29
Without some sort of barrier, the sand on top of the clay will quickly mix, and it will be all clay again.

I don't like the tarp idea myself, as once it gets caught and pulled in something (boat anchor, mower, etc) it will be a pain in the butt to deal with it. Think kids sand box on how they always get a pulled liner and then you have to pull the whole works out.

I like the old carpet idea with sand on top. The carpet acts as a barrier, and the texture should keep sand more or less in place. Adding SoilFloc on top of that... glue. With the carpet out of the direct sun, it should last longer than you, and when it snags, it will just rip, not pull up from the bottom.

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 9
Originally Posted By: liquidsquid
Without some sort of barrier, the sand on top of the clay will quickly mix, and it will be all clay again.

I don't like the tarp idea myself, as once it gets caught and pulled in something (boat anchor, mower, etc) it will be a pain in the butt to deal with it. Think kids sand box on how they always get a pulled liner and then you have to pull the whole works out.

I like the old carpet idea with sand on top. The carpet acts as a barrier, and the texture should keep sand more or less in place. Adding SoilFloc on top of that... glue. With the carpet out of the direct sun, it should last longer than you, and when it snags, it will just rip, not pull up from the bottom.


agreed, that was why I was thinking the portland.

double negative on the old carpet. while it would last a while, it still would break down, plus no telling what nasty crap is in it.

only going to put the vinyl under the sand areas that are 12" thick or greater.

Still leaning towards mixing the portland with the native soil and putting a top layer of just portland on top. will add more in the first 6' of pond depth, far less the greater depths.


Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Ralph D Hart
Recent Posts
Hi there quick question on going forward
by Joe7328 - 04/16/24 02:35 PM
Braggin Time
by Lake8 - 04/16/24 02:21 PM
What did you do at your pond today?
by FishinRod - 04/16/24 01:49 PM
'Nother New Guy
by FishinRod - 04/16/24 01:42 PM
aeration pump type?
by Theo Gallus - 04/16/24 10:19 AM
Golden Shiners - What size to stock?
by Theeck - 04/16/24 09:49 AM
How to catch Hybrid Striper
by FireIsHot - 04/16/24 09:45 AM
instant email notifications of post replies ?
by Augie - 04/16/24 09:31 AM
fishing tackle and tackle room
by FireIsHot - 04/16/24 08:30 AM
Compaction Question
by teehjaeh57 - 04/15/24 11:54 PM
What type of fry?
by Sunil - 04/15/24 08:58 PM
Group Text of Customers, Pay to Fish
by Fishingadventure - 04/15/24 04:24 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5