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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Jim, I'm enjoying reading your posts. My problem, and I suspect the problem of other members also, lies in figuring out how to ratchet down your level of intensity to something approachable, applicable, and manageable in a backyard farm pond.

I'm sure there's a goldmine of info in there, I just need to figure out how to peel off a couple tough, outer layers of commercial aquaculture in order to get down to the delicious, tender pondmeister center.


I see. Focus will then be on feeding regimen and things relating to behavior. Peachtree's interest in outcome is in part due to behavior.

Last edited by Jim Wetzel; 08/17/17 09:05 PM.

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I need to look back to see if they reared fish in ponds or not. That makes a huge difference. In a pond setting, as stock density increases relative to what the forage base provides, the feed quality becomes more important as you approach the feedlot state. At low stocking densities you can have feed being more impactful by simply improving productivity and quality of forage base. [/quote]

Above should be directly in line.


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Some of this is over my head, but it's about fish, so I just hang on for the ride. I enjoy learning and talking to you guys.

Last edited by farmallsc; 08/17/17 09:27 PM.


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WRT- with regard to


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Jim and other new readers. There is a lengthy list of abbreviations or acronyms used on this forum. See this from our archives in the heading of Common Pond Q&A (Archives).
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92442#Post92442

I will put this very informative thread about bluegill, green sunfish and hybrid bluegill (HBG) in the archives under 3 respective topics:
Growing Some Big Bluegill
Common pond fish primer (sunfish edition) – Green Sunfish section
Hybrid Bluegill –HBG

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/18/17 09:40 AM.

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Sunfish genetics chart


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sunfish genetics chart.jpg
Last edited by ewest; 08/18/17 05:46 PM.















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Originally Posted By: ewest
Sunfish genetics chart




I really, really do not like how they got the Bantam Sunfish and GSF as closest kin. I work with both a lot plus played a lot with most of the others in the genus. The Bantam Sunfish based on a lot of things I think should either be more closely allied with Enneacanthus or equally related to Lepomis and Enneacanthus. If Bantam's closest if the GSF, I am a monkeys uncle.

Flier also more like an intermediate between the rockbasses and crappies.


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And one more. The Warmouth!! Something ain't correct their either. Behavior and coloration just not agree with being like the other Lepomis.


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Two things I think need to be to improve upon that study. First, look at multiple nuclear loci plus mitochondrial DNA. Secondly, BG from multiple wild sources so as include multiple CNBG stocks, NBG from the the Mississippi Drainage, NBG from the Mobile River Drainage, HpBG's, and BG from the northern part of their range on the eastern seaboard.

I predict the BG will all of a sudden by diverse like Cutthhroat Trout out west.


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That replaces the same chart posted here years ago but lost due to photo bucket. It is not new and notes that methods are evolving and not a final analysis. The big change in the last 20 years in many fields is the ability to isolate and measure things in much smaller amounts.
















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And more loci faster. They are on the verge of comparing entire genomes.

Paper above would have benefited from better sampling regardless of technique used in the lab. Then part of my problem would have been resolved.

I think the Bluegill should be split into at least three species. Currently that not being case benefits my work but we may need to stop moving things around.


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Here is the other missing chart from the past.



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cent chart (2).jpg
Last edited by ewest; 08/19/17 10:07 AM.















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I am familiar with latter paper as well. Table by itself hard to make sense of without balance of paper. Some of the viability of crosses between species that are not closely related may be impacted by ploidy issues. You should look at effort to make intergeneric hybrids in sunfishes. Hybrids to my eyes as photographed do not look look intermediate.


I have done some Frankenfish action, with later efforts to follow up on paper above, and got really poor hatch when going between genera. For me that was useless because adult are what I wanted to mess with. Very few of the hybrids survived into the larval stage, then you had a lot of hoppers that died as juveniles. When you have to fertilize a couple hundred thousand eggs to get 3 fish large enough to see what they look like, the effort is not worth it.


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The point in the chart for purposes of posting here are the last 3 columns and the concept that reciprocal crosses can be very different. Only a few here are into the ins and outs of genetic theory and practice. We both know that there is a lot out there and it often is contradictory and or confusing for many reasons. Dave Willis and I once tracked down some of the authors of peer reviewed studies on BG/GSF/HBG that had differing results and at the end we came to the conclusion that some of the difference was due to some of the GSF stock not being pure. Even the authors had no answers other than variation.

Last edited by ewest; 08/19/17 05:22 PM.















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Argument we have is that purity is not all that important when even the pure stocks can vary. Plus, considerations in the source hatchery and grading can make a huge difference. Fast growers and slow growers establish their patterns early. Using fish from extremes can mess up the search for understanding.


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There is a lot we don't know and or understand. That is why people keep looking into things and asking why.
















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