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Cool!! A YP and LMB only pond hasn't come up much on the forum. I guess you could say the FHM helped the forage base but from what experts tell us here they usually don't last long in the presence of 250 hungry YP. It sounds like a YP LMB only scenario worked fairly well for the LMB you had. I would think 25 LMB would still create numerous offspring and eventually you would see tons of stunted small LMB too.

Thanks for the input on the location of ribbons. We had thought that S or SW would be preferred due to water temp and sun exposure but at least 2 northern perch ponds (WI and MN) preferred the north shore. The more we try to learn...the less we know.

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YP are much more tolerant of low DO compared to bass, especially SMB. The winterkill could have easily removed all your LMB from the fishery. If any survived they would be the smallest ones. Biggest ones die 1st in uniform concentrations of DO shortages.

Be careful of only using ice fishing to evaluate the YP density. Generally the larger YP are most the easiest ones to catch when ice fishing. Set some minnow or slightly larger small fish traps to better assess the size structure of the subadult YP numbers. Or do some angling that targets small fish; small hooks(#8-10), a small float and worms fished 3-4ft deep. This method will give you good evaluation of the YP population.


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
YP are much more tolerant of low DO compared to bass, especially SMB. The winterkill could have easily removed all your LMB from the fishery. If any survived they would be the smallest ones. Biggest ones die 1st in uniform concentrations of DO shortages.


We have aeration year round in the ponds, so DO was not the cause. Plus the Bass died in early May, while ice-out was at the end of March. I have a lot of background in fish health and couldn't pinpoint any acute infections or other environmental causes...but they all had pretty severe Columnaris growth, ulcers, and whatever else.

They were all dead when I found them, so trying to culture them would not really help diagnose a specific cause of death. I walked around a couple times a day for 2 weeks, hoping to spot one that was still alive, but sick enough to net out....never happened.

All I know is that no one had ever caught a LMB in this pond (mostly for a lack of fishing for them), then these 8 monsters showed up dead and I haven't seen any LMB since.

Who knows?

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Be careful of only using ice fishing to evaluate the YP density. Generally the larger YP are most the easiest ones to catch when ice fishing. Set some minnow or slightly larger small fish traps to better assess the size structure of the subadult YP numbers. Or do some angling that targets small fish; small hooks(#8-10), a small float and worms fished 3-4ft deep. This method will give you good evaluation of the YP population.


If I had boat access to this pond, I would have set fyke nets in 2016 and run a series of mark-recapture sets....but I'll have to look into traps or maybe make some smaller trap nets of some kind?

Any leads on small fyke nets that could be set with an electric trolling motor on a little 10' john boat?


Best regards,

MT

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Since the pond in WI has year round aeration and the old timer big bass showed resultant signs of "severe Columnaris growth, ulcers, and etc. it is possible or likely that too much aeration during a cold long Wisconsin winter produced too much cooling of the water below the standard 39F and this stressed the old bass too much, to the point the secondary infections colonized the stressed fish and eventually killed them.

Others here have seen evidence of LMB being stressed due to chilling the water too much during harsh winters. Consensus here currently is, it is best to move diffusers into shallower water for winter aeration to avoid reducing the entire water column temperature of the whole pond to the 33F-34F range. Some fish species tolerate water temps below 39F better than others. Oldest fish may be more vulnerable to the really low temps more than others, depending on the species and length of time the water is "supper chilled".

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/25/17 08:29 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Since the pond in WI has year round aeration and the old timer big bass showed resultant signs of "severe Columnaris growth, ulcers, and etc. it is possible or likely that too much aeration during a cold long Wisconsin winter produced too much cooling of the water below the standard 39F and this stressed the old bass too much, to the point the secondary infections colonized the stressed fish and eventually killed them.

Others here have seen evidence of LMB being stressed due to chilling the water too much during harsh winters. Consensus here currently is, it is best to move diffusers into shallower water for winter aeration to avoid reducing the entire water column temperature of the whole pond to the 33F-34F range. Some fish species tolerate water temps below 39F better than others. Oldest fish may be more vulnerable to the really low temps more than others, depending on the species and length of time the water is "supper chilled".


Thanks Bill. I do move 2 of the diffusers into about 3ft of water, and about 20ft apart from each other (in both ponds)... Have to keep a decent size hole open for the Pekin and other ducks. All the other diffusers are shut down to minimize the cooling effect of rolling open water.

An added benefit of moving the aerators is to have open water at the shore, so that the deer don't walk out to get a drink and fall into deep water... They can just walk to the shoreline and drink safely.


As for the LMB... I agree it was likely stress from the winter, stress from being old, pre-spawn stress, etc... Spring is the hardest time for fish, and LMB aren't the best at coping.

If I remember correctly, the ice-out on this pond that year was rapid... It was like 10" on on a Sunday (when we caught those perch on the filet board) and completely gone by Tuesday! That big of a temperature swing that fast is enough to temporarily shut down a lot of fish's immune systems.... And there's a lot of opportunistic fungus and bacteria just waiting for this.

The whole thing reminds me of scenarios my Fish Health professor used to come up with for questions on tests and finals.


Best regards,

MT

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Dono - You selectively use water from the drainage ditch as fill or make-up water - correct? I am convinced that shiners eat lots of swim-up YP fry. 100's to 1000's of shiners are capable of consuming very high amounts of YP fry that are not much bigger than many crustacean zooplankton. Thus hundreds of thousands to millions of fry can become food over the course of several days as shiners gorge on fish fry.


Bill do you think loading a 1 acre crappie pond with gallons of shiners, would help reduce recrutment? (This pond has perch too, so still relevant, hehe)


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Originally Posted By: fishm_n
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Dono - You selectively use water from the drainage ditch as fill or make-up water - correct? I am convinced that shiners eat lots of swim-up YP fry. 100's to 1000's of shiners are capable of consuming very high amounts of YP fry that are not much bigger than many crustacean zooplankton. Thus hundreds of thousands to millions of fry can become food over the course of several days as shiners gorge on fish fry.


Bill do you think loading a 1 acre crappie pond with gallons of shiners, would help reduce recrutment? (This pond has perch too, so still relevant, hehe)


NOT and expert but I would expect that it all gos back to the timing of the crappie spawn and perch spawn. If the crappie young are desirable to the shiners over what other young are available. Great question.


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With this unbelievable weather, I may be getting temps up to near what the YP are looking for. I haven't been up to the pond in a while, and I won't be there for a few more weeks. I haven't even had time to get some branches out.
Jeff

Last edited by SetterGuy; 02/19/17 06:39 PM.

9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Unbelievable weather is right! We've set new record highs the last 3 days (high 60s) and they say we will probably set records the next three days as well. We went from 8 to 10 inches of ice a few weeks back to total clear water today.

I also wonder what the impact on the YP spawn will be. Are the eggs in the females mature enough this early should water temps come up enough? Will the weird weather cause them to mature too early as the temp is supposed to drop back to normal next week? If they do spawn, will the newbies starve to death when the water temp drops back down?

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As the water warms it accelerates egg development of YP. If the mild spring continues expect YP egg ribbons earlier than normal for your area. I had eggs one year several days after the ice was fully melted. In Missouri and southern IL, and IN YP eggs could occur the last of February or early March. Watch the water temperatures at 2-3ft deep. When they reach 48-50F start looking for YP eggs.

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I won't have a chance to even check the pond until March 5. I may find ribbons in the leaves. I had about 50/50 with the ribbons and branches I had out last year. Half of the ribbons were in the, less than ideal branches, I placed along the bank, the rest were on the bottom.
I haven't had a significant rain since last August. My pond is down at least 4'. We may get some rain in the next week or so though. (I've said that at least a hundred times since August, but it always misses our place.)
Ive still got 10-11' of water, and maybe 3/4 ac surface area. But they are definitely more crowded than they were. I'll get the feeder going when I get back there also.

What happened to having winter?


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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As far as I can tell, Winter will be back some time next week. Just in time to fry everything confused by this warm spell. Should be an interesting spring, just not ideal for a "normal" spring.

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No ribbons yet, it has been incredibly warm this last week.



Last edited by Shorty; 02/22/17 09:46 PM.


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Wow Shorty, it is good the perch in my pond don't get to see your pictures or they will really get an inferiority complex about their size! Those are some beautiful specimens! It can't be long for those eggs to drop.

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After seeing Shorty's pics, I had to run up to the pond. I must be getting pretty close to ribbons starting. The water temp is between 45 and 48 degrees. I measured the temp from two places, with two different thermometers. No ribbons yet. I threw in some food, and there was an amazing amount of feeding activity. So, I went ahead and added feed to the feeder, hooked up a battery and the timer. Set it up for 20 seconds a day, split between two feedings. I placed some branches along the edge. Not the ideal branches I intended to place in the water, but all I had time for.
My water level is down over four feet. We haven't had a really good rain, with any runoff since August. I did take the rowboat out and confirmed I still have 10' depth through a major portion of the remaining water.
One huge difference this year vs the past two years. I've previously had thousands of FHM hitting the feed along the banks. Today, I saw very few. Not sure if my YP, SMB, and HSB have matured and fed on them over the winter, or something else has worked them over. There is considerable white wash from a kingfisher on the drain pipe and the fish feeder. And he was screaming at me most of the time I was at the pond.
I'll be back in two weeks. If we keep getting these warm temps, I'll bet I see ribbons when I come back.
Jeff


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Great update Jeff! See if you can come back in 2 weeks with some unique ribbon catcher ideas. If you have some larger plastic pipe sections, maybe something T shaped, some 5 gallon buckets with holes in the side oriented upright, or 5 gallon bucket laying on its side half submerged with water, some artificial bulrush or reed shaped items. I'm curious if given the choice between structure, cavities, leafy or sandy bottoms, natural vegetation, or tree tops/branches, which do they pick and why?

Your experience with FHM is like mine. Before predators they go crazy, one season later, they are gone. I only have a few panfish and perch, no predators and they still were gone. I think the perch have been feasting in your pond wink

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I have been quite lucky with common shiners keeping up with our perch. Same with us FHM are hard to find in our perch pond any more.


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I've got some GSH which were stocked when the YP were stocked. Unfortunately I lost a lot of them right away, as they were attracted to the nylon netting in the grass mats I had put down in areas that I thought would wash. One would get caught and attract another one. There were 100s caught, like a gill net. Most died. I did catch a few last summer on small jigs, fishing for YP. I was surprised at how large they had become. I'm assuming they are reproducing. Probably wrecking havoc on my YP fry, from what I've read here.
GSH grass mat gill net..


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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[quote=SetterGuy]I've got some GSH which were stocked when the YP were stocked. Unfortunately I lost a lot of them right away, as they were attracted to the nylon netting in the grass mats I had put down in areas that I thought would wash. One would get caught and attract another one. There were 100s caught, like a gill net. Most died. I did catch a few last summer on small jigs, fishing for YP. I was surprised at how large they had become. I'm assuming they are reproducing. Probably wrecking havoc on my YP fry, from what I've read here.

setterguy, I am planning to stock my pond with the same fish you have starting this spring. some things I read about the GSH(bait stealing ) make me hesitate on stocking them. are you getting YP and RES/HBG recruitment?
any other cons to the GSH?
I figured with SMB and HSB and plenty of open water they would keep the GSH numbers down. I also thought if they are easy to catch they would make great catfish bait for river fishing if overpopulated.


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Originally Posted By: xraytrapper

setterguy, I am planning to stock my pond with the same fish you have starting this spring. some things I read about the GSH(bait stealing ) make me hesitate on stocking them. are you getting YP and RES/HBG recruitment?
any other cons to the GSH?
I figured with SMB and HSB and plenty of open water they would keep the GSH numbers down. I also thought if they are easy to catch they would make great catfish bait for river fishing if overpopulated.


XRay,
I'm not sure about YP & RES recruitment. I've been totally invaded by frogs, of all kinds. Mostly bullfrogs. Every trap I've used fills up with tadpoles in minutes.
Last fall I was seeing schools of small fish all around the dock, and along the shorelines. I was hoping to be able to catch some, nand identify them. No luck.. I'm thinking that with so many ribbons last spring, and many beds observed with RES, that I had some recruitment. That and the fact that I lost so many GSH when stocked. I hope they are not cleaning up all the RES and YP fry. I don't have much bait stealing going on. Once I figured out how to catch YP, we've had a lot of success. I had never seen a YP, until we stocked them.
Wish I could give you better info. In April my YP and RES will have been in the pond for two years. I added the SMB and HSB in Oct of the same year (2015).
So, I'm still in the early stages of my learning curve. I put in way too many YP when I did my initial stocking, but had a large number that didn't survive, so I don't have a very clear picture of fish density. We've harvested a lot of YP, and have found them to be easy to clean and delicious. Hopefully I will eventually e able to trap some fry, and see what's reproducing successfully. At this time my GSH have not been a problem in any way, at least that I'm aware of.
I do run a feeder, but it's more of a supplementary feed program instead of providing all of what my fish need. (About 50 pounds a month of Optima)
If I get time I'm going to try and build a real fish trap that will funnel everything into a big net. Maybe then I'll see what I've really got. I'm an absentee pond owner, with too many irons in the fire..


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Thanks setterguy. That's very good info for upcoming plans for my new pond. I also plan to supplemental feed. What was the fish stocking numbers you used if you don't mind sharing and did you stock all fingerlings or did stock multiple sizes?
Did you harvest any YP the fall of 2016 and what were the sizes at that point?
Sorry for all the questions. Probably will make a post soon about the stocking of my own pond. Can never get enough opinions and advice.
Thanks, Scott


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Scott,
I started harvesting at one year. This pic was taken at one year.


I'm bad about measuring and weighing. We've harvested over a hundred, easy. We do get quite a few in this size also.



I let a lot of the larger ones go, but keep 100% of the smaller ones. My original thought was the larger ones would all be females. That has proven mostly true. I also thought that all the small ones would be males. That hasn't held up, as lots of the smaller ones when cleaned have eggs.

The smaller ones are easy to clean, and taste just fine. wink

My stocking numbers have been reviewed on this site, and were way too high. I really don't want to comment on them. There was a water problem during transport, and some "may" have died. I saw no floaters, but the pond smelled funny for a few months. I will leave it to the experts here on recommending fish numbers for you. Judging by the number of ribbons I had, I have lots of YP. I haven't worried about over harvesting. The activity at the feeder hasn't changed much in the two years I've been feeding. The feed gets cleaned up very fast.
Hope this helps. I also hope to find out about recruitment this summer. To see, If any of the YP fry are surviving.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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SetterGuy - Great update for your fishery. Keep up the good work. Your experiences with yellow perch in Missouri are very educational for us.
1. Do you have any mid-summer high readings for water temperatures? If not try and get us some of that data this summer.
2. Do you aerate your pond and how much each day?

Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/27/17 10:50 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
SetterGuy - Great update for your fishery. Keep up the good work. Your experiences with yellow perch in Missouri are very educational for us.
1. Do you have any mid-summer high readings for water temperatures? If not try and get us some of that data this summer.
2. Do you aerate your pond and how much each day?


Bill, I will watch temperatures more closely this summer. I'm not sure why, but just swimming in it, I'm always surprised it doesn't feel that warm. We swim in Tablerock Lake a lot in the summer, and it usually feels pretty warm in August. Our little pond never feels that warm. I suspect a lot of that is due to the trees that grow near the edge. They are big old oaks, hickories and maples. The water stays pretty cool a foot or so below the surface.
The trees present another problem though. In the fall there are days when a good portion of the surface is covered by fallen leaves. I know they are all sinking to the bottom. When diving down to the bottom, in the middle of the pond, I don't find that many leaves. I suspect the wind what little I get, pushes them to the banks. I see lots of leaves in the shallow water along the bank.
This means I need to aerate. I am planning on getting it done this summer, but haven't even started on it yet. I think I'm going to run air from the barn, but that's 900' from the pond, with a pretty good ravine in between. It's too costly to run electric. If I get it done, my plan would be to only run it at night. The pond is just three years old, but it does get a lot of leaves.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Be aware that aerating a lot in mid summer can warm the deeper bottom water. This can cause heat temperature problems for the biggest perch. Depending on the size of your aeration system for 1 acre you may not need to run it anymore than 2-5 hrs per night depending on aerator size.


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