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I have a 1/2 acre pond in northeast indiana. It will have areas that are 16 ft in depth with it being 10ft deep in areas now. I have stocked GS, FHM, 50 BG and 150 res so far. My question is I would like to go with smallmouth bass for my main predator fish and was wondering how they would do with HSB and how many of each to stock?

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I would have preferred that you started this thread before you added BG. For your question of compatibility of HSB & SMB they co-habitate well and usually feed in different habitats when not eating pellets. SMB if pellet trained will grow fast on pellets.

Several members plus myself have experienced SMB with BG. Not a good partnership because smallies have a hard time controlling BG. If you do it you will have to do a lot of manual thinning of the small BG (2"-4") or they will overpopulate and their growth will be slower than normal. HBG with their lower reproduction and recruitment work better with SMB and HSB than BG.


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Thanks for the advice. Would you suggest putting the SMB and or HSB in this fall or wait til next year and how many of each? Also should I aerate?

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Originally Posted By: Mitch3034
Thanks for the advice. Would you suggest putting the SMB and or HSB in this fall or wait til next year and how many of each?

When did you stock your forage species? If it was early this year, and they have had time to spawn, you could add some SMB this fall; you'll be hard pressed to find any in the spring to stock, and you'll want to have them present to control your BG as quickly as possible, once the BG start spawning.

As Bill indicated, you may have a lot of BG thinning to do to prevent BG overpopulation, at least until you have a strong number of smallies to work the BG numbers for you. You'll likely need to concentrate on the BG that make it past smallie forage size, usually in the 4-8" range; this size will really accumulate and prevent best top end growth for your other lepomids. The HSB have pretty small gape size, and won't help much on these larger, midsized BG.

You could consider adding some WE--they'll eventually get to a size where they'll help cull the BG.

Don't be discouraged about adding the BG. A half acre pond can be managed much more effectively than a larger BOW, and there are a heck of a lot worse ways you could be spending your time than fishing for BG. And if you have kids, you can put a "bounty" on the size fish you want to remove.

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I stocked the GS and FHM about 2 months ago. Doubt they spawned. Like you said all the fisheries around here said they wouldn't have any smallies after this fall til next fall. Yeah I have kids, so need to keep most of the BG.

Last edited by Mitch3034; 10/31/16 04:59 PM.
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I'm sure you'll get a lot of opinions on this, but if it were me, I'd stock a few smallies this fall, perhaps 10-15. If you had pretty good numbers of GSH and FHM, they should make it through the winter, and they'll be ready to go when the BG are spawning in the spring and early summer. Then add more SMB next summer/fall as early as you can get them. I would consider WE as well, especially if you have some pretty steep banks and deep water structure.
You'll likely find that certain of your smallies do quite well on BG and will adapt to BG as primary forage; you can cull those that do not seem to be thriving on this diet. With your kids aggressively targeting the BG that grow out of the preferred smallie range, you should be able to manage quite well.

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I'll be watching this thread with interest... Hopefully you'll update as you go and let us know how things go. I stocked my pond 2 years ago in a similar manner as you Mitch only minus the BG. I didn't stock the BG for two reasons, first was the fact that they nibble badly on swimmers when numbers are numerous and stunted. Then also I followed recommendations here to avoid them when stocking SMB. Saying all that I really miss BG in the pond even though we have perch and RES. Stocked 900 RES and haven't caught a single one or even seen them dead or alive in 2 yrs. in spite of targeting them multiple times... The perch are fun to catch and as they continue to grow are getting better and better, but they just aren't the same as fishing for big BG on the beds that I caught when I was a kid.

Our pond is 3 1/2 ac so Im sure that would make the control of the BG even tougher to handle long term. So far there is very little weedy cover in our pond as it is steep banked so I wonder if in this type environment if the SMB and HSB could better control the BG.

Whats your take on this Yolk? Things are really going well so far, the predators are growing nicely and there seems to be quite a bit of forage especially GSH available. But with the lack of cover I wonder just how long the prey can survive as the SMB seem to be hammering them almost nonstop. With this in mind Ive been looking forward trying to make plans so we can continue to keep plenty of food in front of the bass.

Options Ive been pondering are adding BG or digging a decent sized forage pond and raising forage to supplement the large pond.

Last edited by JamieE; 11/01/16 06:54 AM.
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Jamie, what other forage options do you have in your pond, other than GSH and young YP?

Originally Posted By: JamieE
Stocked 900 RES and haven't caught a single one or even seen them dead or alive in 2 yrs. in spite of targeting them multiple times...


Two years prior to this, RES were caught with relative frequency from my 1 acre pond. They seem to have been taken over by the YP, SMB and WE now. Caught two this year, despite trying pretty hard for them. I'm guessing they're finding other hunting grounds that I haven't figured out how to mimic yet. Thinking I need to have Shorty pay a visit. grin

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Originally Posted By: Mitch3034
I stocked the GS and FHM about 2 months ago. Doubt they spawned. Like you said all the fisheries around here said they wouldn't have any smallies after this fall til next fall. Yeah I have kids, so need to keep most of the BG.


Mitch, was it you that called me (Hoosier Pond Pros) from the Ft. Wayne area yesterday about Smallmouth? I'm the one that told you about Dan Laggis.

If you still don't have any success finding SMB, let me know, I might have a line on getting some in the next two weeks, but they will be 5"-7" fish.........


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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Yes that was me that talked to you. Small world!

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Mitch , Since you have stocked BG, return occassionially to this thread and keep us updated about the progress of your BG-SMB combination in your 1/2 ac pond. We need more information about how to manage this fish combo and how the fishery progresses as the years go by. Others that are interested in SMB-BG will find your feedback and evaluations valuable information.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/01/16 11:24 AM.

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I sure will Bill. My first experience with a pond. But wanted something a little different than what I was used to fishing.

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Mitch, there was another South MI PB forum member who wanted to stock SMB this fall but wasn't able to take the required minimum order of 100 from laggis in Gobles, MI and I wasn't ready to split the order with him. I was interested in more like 10-15 not 50. But perhaps he would work out something with you if Laggis still has any.

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Originally Posted By: JamieE
Saying all that I really miss BG in the pond even though we have perch and RES.
Our pond is 3 1/2 ac so Im sure that would make the control of the BG even tougher to handle long term. So far there is very little weedy cover in our pond as it is steep banked so I wonder if in this type environment if the SMB and HSB could better control the BG.

Things are really going well so far, the predators are growing nicely and there seems to be quite a bit of forage especially GSH available. But with the lack of cover I wonder just how long the prey can survive as the SMB seem to be hammering them almost nonstop. With this in mind Ive been looking forward trying to make plans so we can continue to keep plenty of food in front of the bass.

Options Ive been pondering are adding BG or digging a decent sized forage pond and raising forage to supplement the large pond.


Sounds to me like you've got a good thing going, if your smallies are growing well, and still have plenty of forage 2 years in, especially something fusiform and perfect for SMB. Hard to say how it'll look in a couple more years, when the SMB have gone through a couple more cycles of growth and recruitment-I've been impressed with how voracious the smallies are, and think you're wise to be thinking about this now. I don't have enough experience with GSH as a primary forage source to have a good answer.

I also have mostly steep banks in a 3 acre pond--even when there was no weed cover, the SMB weren't able to adequately control BG by themselves. For me, the pleasures of catching big BG outweigh the extra work removing and managing them, but require consistent efforts-they can escape control quickly. It is possible that introducing BG to a fully mature, predator rich environment with multiple, plentiful year classes of SMB might allow for adequate predation, but I don't think I'd count on that, and would add BG only if I was fully prepared to deal with the consequences [if you can consider paddling around in a canoe on a warm fall evening targeting 7-8" BG with 2lb test and microjigs to be "consequences"].

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I think it is best to target harvest mostlythe female BG to help reduce recruitment of BG. Note male-female BG are often not recognizable until the BG grows to 7.5-8". There are several older posts here describing recognizing male vs female BG. In this link to the PB Archives are lots of discussions of growing big BG and a few posts of how to recognize male vs female BG.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=286856&page=2

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/01/16 01:39 PM.

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Read the thread Bill provided. Here is some of the info on id male vs female BG.


These are from the PB article (series) by Bill , Bruce and Cecil. They are posted on another thread but this is a proper location for them.































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Our existing forage base comprises of a dwindling population of FH, GSH,YP,RES,LCS and unfortunately GSF. Also stocked cray fish and they have established quite well. We did stock grass shrimp, but not sure they survived with very little weedy structure. I haven't been able to confirm the LCS have really established either. Have found a couple dead LCS that appeared to have grown quite a bit since releasing them 2 1/2 yrs ago.

The SMB and HSB seem to be controlling the GSF quite well as of now. We first discovered them in early 2016 and have caught a hand full of larger ones. So far the young GSF seem to be getting hammered surprisingly well.

Yolk, I don't consider targeting big BG to be any inconvenience at all. In fact we really like to fish and that is one of the reasons we considered stocking BG. Although 3 1/2 ac is a lot of water to fish. Id probably invite a few friends to help out as well if needed. You have a very similar sized pond, so ill ask how much fishing does it really take to control the BG with SMB and HSB as the only predators?

With the presence of the GSF what would happen if BG were added to the mix?

How would adding BG affect the existence of the unwanted GSF?

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JamieE,
I'm curious, did you get picture of your LCS, even the dead ones? How big at stocking and how much did the grow in 2.5 years? How many did you stock? I'm not sure you would catch the LCS easily on hook/line and I only had one of my adult LCS enter a trap once. You might have a population but not have an easy way to sample them.

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Jamie, where did you find your crayfish from? I was looking at stocking some. But Jones and andrys don't carry them.

Last edited by Mitch3034; 11/02/16 09:15 AM.
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Originally Posted By: JamieE
Yolk, I don't consider targeting big BG to be any inconvenience at all. In fact we really like to fish and that is one of the reasons we considered stocking BG. Although 3 1/2 ac is a lot of water to fish. Id probably invite a few friends to help out as well if needed. You have a very similar sized pond, so ill ask how much fishing does it really take to control the BG with SMB and HSB as the only predators?

With the presence of the GSF what would happen if BG were added to the mix?

How would adding BG affect the existence of the unwanted GSF?

I'm really not sure how much fishing is actually needed--I'm removing every BG between 3-8" I catch, and any larger that don't appear to be completely healthy. I would guess I'm removing 60-75lbs/year, so I would say that would be a minimum number. Our BG down here may be starting spawning earlier and stopping later than yours, so you might not need to remove quite so many; I would say that it is a good sign that your predators seem to be controlling the GSF pretty well.

Have you considered adding HBG as an alternative to BG? Since you've already got GSF, downsides would be negligible IMHO, you'd get some increased production of sunfish for forage, and great fighting, aggressive panfish to complement your fishery [Man, I sure hope Sparky doesn't read this; current political climate has reduced my appetite for hyperbole, even where it may be so richly deserved by various and sundry cyanelloids.]

WRT addition of BG to GSF containing waters, tradition has it that GSF are usually outcompeted and eventually replaced for the most part after the addition of BG. I've experienced this in a couple ponds, but currently have one in which the two seem to be cohabiting very well. I'm really not sure why this is, I mention it only to note that I think it would he somewhat hard to predict how the various sunfishes would mix, and what the results would be. This might be another argument for adding HBG, instead of BG.

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Originally Posted By: Mitch3034
I have a 1/2 acre pond in northeast indiana. It will have areas that are 16 ft in depth with it being 10ft deep in areas now. I have stocked GS, FHM, 50 BG and 150 res so far. My question is I would like to go with smallmouth bass for my main predator fish and was wondering how they would do with HSB and how many of each to stock?


Mitch, like Yolk I've been managing BG in a limited gape cool water species fishery for 8 years now. With seining, angling, trapping, cast nets, and dense predator stocking I've managed their population - but it requires constant effort. Some is fun, some is laborious. Unless you are willing to apply those efforts for the rest of the fishery's lifetime, consider other options.

For example: Given your fishery is so young, I'd consider draining, seine, nuke and start over sans the BG. Remove all the GSH, FHM and RES you can, cage them, drain as low as you can and nuke with hydrated lime the remainder of the pond. Refill and restock your caged fish. Per Yolk, another possible companion Lepomis would be HBG, although you could expect some hybridization with the RES - the resulting offspring are really pretty cool and believe still heavily skewed towards males therefore not presenting a population management issue.

BG in a cool water/limited gape species fishery isn't a disaster, it's just a challenge and I encourage all my clients to avoid the scenario at all possible the only exception is infiltration from upstream fisheries during overflow events.



Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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I'm curious as to why HBG aren't an option, or are they? I have a similar stocking plan, but added HBG, so grandkids could always catch something.
I was told by the fish seller, that they wouldn't reproduce, but I now think that was bad information. I've been trying to remove females, but I'm not really all that sure about which is which. Less distinctive or less colorful HBG aren't going back..
I've still got lots of smaller fish along the banks. I pretty sure most of those are FHM. I've added crayfish, and grass/glass shrimp, but I don't think either of them were able to get established.
Catching lots of HBG, and YP. Occasionally catching nice SMB. They are all very healthy. Still haven't caught a HSB, but I see bigger swirls along the banks, and out in the middle of the pond, and small fish jumping out of the water, as if their lives were in danger. (I imagine they are.)
I am a bit concerned that the HBG will evolve into something else, and get too numerous, but so far, things seem to be stable.
Pond is only two yrs old.
Edit: I see the BG are already stocked in the original post. I was going to delete this post, but if anyone has info on HBG recruitment, and management, I would appreciate the help.
Thanks,
Jeff

Last edited by SetterGuy; 11/03/16 06:34 AM.

9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Canyon, I haven't found any LCS in quite some time. I took pics of the one I found dead and its on my thread. I stocked 7 larger ones in the 4" range and the one I found was pushing 6". I believe I stocked them in April and found the dead fish later that summer or early fall. I'm hopeful they are established, but have no way of knowing for sure.

Mitch I got numerous paper shell crayfish from smith creek in New York.

Think I'll hold of on the BG and give it some time. Sounds like by stocking them things will get fairly complicated. Not sure about adding HBG either as theres no benefit to adding forage for the predators with them, but on the other hand they would be fun to catch.

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SetterGuy -for catching HSB- try chicken liver , no weight casted in area you see HSB feeding or when you feed...should do the trick.


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Originally Posted By: beastman
SetterGuy -for catching HSB- try chicken liver , no weight casted in area you see HSB feeding or when you feed...should do the trick.


So, is the chicken liver floating? Use a bobber? Slow retrieve? Or, just let it sit..

Now I'm thinking that I might even see one of these elusive HSB!


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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