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I have a new pond in Nebraska just being finished up and has about 1 acre of water, will be about 5 acres when it's full hopefully next year, about 20ft deep. I'm looking at doing smallmouth bass instead of largemouth. I want to get the smallmouth going with everything else since they won't manage bluegill as well as largemouth. I'm looking at stocking the below this fall. Minnows, 500 bg, 100 perch, 150 smb, and 50 catfish. Next fall I will stock black crappie and more minnows. Looking for thoughts on doing smallmouth.

Thanks.

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Not sure which part of NE you are in, but I am also in the process of creating a smallmouth fishery. I went with redear sunfish rather than bluegill. They get larger, and don't spawn as prolifically, so control of them isn't as big of concern.


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Welcome to the forum, crashdp!

Since you already know that SMB would have a hard time keeping BG numbers down, Black Crappie will be about 100 times harder for the SMB to keep BCP from overpopulating and stunting.

If you like both BG and BCP, consider using hybrids of both, plus Hybrid Striped Bass with about 300 more YP and about 500 Redear sunfish for snail/parasite control. I'd also suggest stocking Golden Shiners with your Fathead minnows.

Check your Private Messages....



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Your stocking plan is marching on new unproven territory. The HSB will help with control of the blk crappie(BCP) if you use enough HSB. In fact the HSB will be the primary predator to the small BCP. HSB and SMB are compatible in ponds. If the BG or BCP become too abundant after 6-8 yrs you will have to resort to using LMB as the primary predator which is an easy supplemental stocking of bass. Initially I would omit either the BG or BCP.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/01/16 10:17 AM.

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FYI hybrid crappie will reproduce. I would avoid crappie in your situation. More info is working on hybrid crappie in ponds.

From the American Fisheries Society


Survival, Age-0 Abundance, and Growth of Black
Crappie and Hybrid Crappie in 0.1-ha Earthen
Ponds
Brandon M. Baumhoer & Anita M. Kelly
North American Journal of Fisheries Management, 36:3, 447-451, DOI: 10.1080/02755947.2015.1135215


Abstract
Crappie Pomoxis spp. are a popular sportfish in the United
States; many private pond owners would like to stock crappie,
but crappie display inconsistent reproduction, which can lead to
overpopulation and result in a stunted population. Crappie with
limited reproduction would be an attractive management option
for minimizing overpopulation. An experiment was conducted to
measure survival, abundance of age-0 offspring, and growth of
Black Crappie and hybrid crappie (female Black Crappie
P. nigromaculatus × male White Crappie P. annularis) in small
impoundments. Sixteen unfertilized 0.1-ha ponds were stocked
with Black Crappie or hybrid crappie. Half of the ponds with
Black Crappie and hybrid crappie were also stocked with
Largemouth Bass Micropterus salmoides and Bluegill Lepomis
macrochirus, and all ponds were stocked with Fathead Minnow
Pimephales promelas as supplemental forage. In September 2013,
ponds were harvested and drained; weight and lengths were
recorded from all adult Black Crappie and hybrid crappie, and
all age-0 Black Crappie and hybrid crappie were counted and
recorded. Adult survival rates did not differ among groups
(F = 0.72, df = 2, P = 0.5059), ranging from 25% to 58%.
Predation and increased competition with other centrarchids
may be a function of adult Black Crappie and hybrid crappie
survival. The number of age-0 fish recovered from each pond was
highly variable and ranged from 0 to 52,162 individuals, with no
significant differences observed among the groups with and without
predators (F = 3.73, df = 2, P = 0.0524). Hybrid crappie were
significantly heavier (F = 14.36, df = 2, P = 0.0011) and longer
(F = 8.45, df = 2, P = 0.0071) than Black Crappie. Growth rates
for hybrid crappie were higher than any previously documented
research of individual crappie species. High densities of Fathead
Minnow for forage may explain the high growth rates. Hybrid
crappie may be a viable alternative for stocking in small impoundments, but further investigation of the long-term success of stocked hybrid crappie is warranted.


Last edited by ewest; 07/01/16 10:58 AM.















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Hey fellow Husker, welcome to the forum! I love your fishery goals, SMB are amazing and a lot of fun to manage.

I manage several fisheries in NE and many feature cool water species [SMB, HSB, YP, WE] and am happy to help. I am also the only SMB hatchery in NE so can provide some insight there, too. Feel free to reach out anytime - too much to relate here. HBCP can work as they do in my fishery, but it requires pretty dense predator populations, which provides yet another management challenge.



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I wanted SMB but it may not be practical. So maybe I should stock 75-100 LMB instead of the SMB, that way I can stock BCP next fall. I enjoy catching crappie, perch, and bluegill for eating. The SMB was just to have something different to fish for than everywhere else. I will probably add a few RES also. I don't really care to try any hybrids. I'm adding fathead and crawdads in the next week, then fish later.

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TJ knows his smallmouth bass. If you want smallmouth, his advice would be worth seeking out.


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If you want to catch something different and exciting, stock some hybrid striped bass with the LMB. You will not catch any freshwater fish that pulls ounce for ounce as hard as a HSB. Substitute 5-10 HSB/ac in place of that number of LMB/ac. Try the HSB for several years. Then if you don't like them just fish them out. If you like them, ladder stock a few periodically. HSB are excellent at controlling crappie when crappie are young(small) and living in open water.

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Originally Posted By: crashadp
I wanted SMB but it may not be practical.


+1 to HSB.

However, if you really want the SMB, even if you feel you have to stock LMB--just put in some larger ones with your LMB. Sure, they won't flourish, but you'll have enough adaptable individuals that survive to make an interesting addition to your fishery.

If you make the right connections, you might be able to find someone in NE with a SMB pond who is willing to give you, or let you catch, some larger SMB culls. I try to remove around 50/year from my pond, in the 8-14 inch range, to keep competition for the larger fish down.

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Crash, I encourage you to reach out to TJ as mentioned above. I'm a fellow Nebraskan as well, and TJ's advice and guidance through my project has been invaluable. Even if you choose not to go the SMB route, he can help you out.

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I stocked SMB in my pond along with YP and RES. The guys on the forum recommended the HSB to me as well and my initial response was like yours. I wasn't really overly excited about them...But let me tell you they are an absolute hoot! I didn't think there was any fresh water fish alive that could stack up against small mouth bass as far as putting up a fight goes, but they can definitely do it! They are also the fastest growing fish in our pond! stocked them a little over a year ago at 5-6" and we just caught one the other day that weighed in at just slightly under 1 1/2 pounds and was 14" long. That seems crazy to me!! Also Ive had three of them hit a fly in the last week and everyone of them hit so hard they snapped my 4# test tippet line! Guess its time to move up to 6# line...

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Originally Posted By: JamieE
I stocked SMB in my pond along with YP and RES. The guys on the forum recommended the HSB to me as well and my initial response was like yours. I wasn't really overly excited about them...But let me tell you they are an absolute hoot! I didn't think there was any fresh water fish alive that could stack up against small mouth bass as far as putting up a fight goes, but they can definitely do it! They are also the fastest growing fish in our pond! stocked them a little over a year ago at 5-6" and we just caught one the other day that weighed in at just slightly under 1 1/2 pounds and was 14" long. That seems crazy to me!! Also Ive had three of them hit a fly in the last week and everyone of them hit so hard they snapped my 4# test tippet line! Guess its time to move up to 6# line...


I stocked some a year ago. I haven't caught one yet. We've caught several SMB, and they have been a blast. I have had two bites/hits though, from fish that I did not see, but really felt bigger than anything else we've caught. Just hammered my jig. I thought maybe somebody threw in a larger fish, that I'm just not aware of.. But your comments make me think maybe I had a hit from a HSB. Now I'm anxious to try and catch one.
What fly did they hit? Imitation minnow..
Thx
Jeff

Last edited by SetterGuy; 07/02/16 09:53 AM.

9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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They really seem to like a slow sinking nymph fly! It actually feels like a 4# fish is smacking the fly when they hit it! The smallies are a bit smaller at 1# and 12 1/2", but they I haven't had them break the 4# test line yet and Ive caught several.

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I talked to TJ and my strategy has changed a bit and appreciate the insight. I'm looking at doing HBG instead of BG, along with SMB, YP, HSB, WE, RES, CC, BCP, FHM, and GSH. The suggestion was to go with Hybrid BCP, but will just do BCP for cost reasons and wanting one fish for kids to catch easily and eat. I will keep every BCP we catch, unless the predator fish sustain them and it's not needed.

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BG can always be added later if you don't have enough forage numbers. As the planned fish forage density becomes fewer reduce number of predators which help increase existing forage density and their survivors.


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Originally Posted By: JamieE
They really seem to like a slow sinking nymph fly! It actually feels like a 4# fish is smacking the fly when they hit it! The smallies are a bit smaller at 1# and 12 1/2", but they I haven't had them break the 4# test line yet and Ive caught several.


Thanks Jamie, I think I've had two hits from the HSB. One of these days I'll land one. They seem like 4 times the fish as the SMB, and the SMB seem like 4 times the fish as the YP. Ha!


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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Does anybody have experience with HBG and RES. I'm wondering if they cross if the result will be undesirable (not seeing much researching) I will hold off on the crappie for now and reassess in a couple years. I'm not as concerned as everyone else with the crappie as I want to do some management as that is what I love doing with existing ponds and all have crappie, but not the pond size and cover of this so I'll wait. HBG, RES, SMB, HSB, YP, CC and minnows. I may throw in 5 Northern instead of WE later on that I catch out of the river. Hopefully not offensive as everyone loves WE. I just don't care to reel in a stick, want fish that attack and fight. I appreciate all the insight and recommendations. This is the first pond I'm doing from scratch. Our other ponds are much smaller but have good BG, LMB, WCP, CC.

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HBG and RES may hybridize - I have some in my own fishery, the few fish caught were all quite large. I don't recall reviewing any scientific research on GSF/BG x RES offspring, but imagine at least 70%+ are males and have never become a management issue for me. You mentioned an interest in HBG and this is also why I recommended potentially stocking both RES and HBG - any hybridization could become an interesting experiment and a bonus catch.


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The questions are many and the answers few.

There is info that says F1 lepomis crosses (some types)can reproduce making F2s and some can back cross with parentals. There is also info saying HBG cant back cross with parentals.

Here is one source

HYBRIDIZATION OF FISHES IN NORTH AMERICA
(FAMILY CENTRARCHIDAE)
by

W.F. CHILDERS



Sex Ratios of F1 hybrids
Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.

Sex determination in sunfishes is very poorly understood. Bluegills, green sunfish, and their F1 hybrids apparently have 24 pairs of chromosomes, and the sex chromosomes are indistinguishable from the autosomes (Bright 1937). Bright also reported that the chromosomes are so similar in shape and size that he was unable to detect specific differences. Roberts (1964) found that red-ear, bluegill, and warmouth sunfishes each have 24 pairs of chromosomes; green sunfish from North Carolina had 24 pairs; but green sunfish from West Virginia had only 23 pairs.

The unbalanced phenotypic tertiary sex ratios of the F1 hybrid sunfish could result from unbalanced primary genetic sex ratios, specific differences in the strength of sex-determining factors, an overriding of the genetic sex by environmental factors, or differential mortality of the sexes.

Since the WG F1 hybrids were 84 percent males and the reciprocal cross hybrids were 16 percent males, it is possible that the strength of sex-determining factors of warmouths are 5.25 times more powerful than those of green sunfish. Specific differences in the strength of sex-determining factors cannot alone explain the sex ratios of the remaining eight kinds of viable hybrids, since none of these were predominately females.

RB and BG F1 hybrids were both 97 percent males. If differential mortality were the cause of these unbalanced sex ratios, much of the mortality would have had to occur after the swim-up fry stages, since in the stripping experiments total mortality between fertilization and the swim-up fry stages was only 14 percent for the RB and 27 percent for the BG F1 hybrids.

It is not known which sex is the heterogametic condition for the sex chromosomes of the four experimental species; however, Haldane (1922) formulated a rule which furnishes a clue: “When in the F1 offspring of a cross between two animal species or races, one sex is absent, rare, or sterile, that sex is always the heterozygous sex.” Using Haldane's rule, Krumholz (1950), in a study concerning BR F1 hybrids, pointed out that the males of both bluegills and red-ear sunfish are probably homozygametic for sex and the females heterozygametic. The application of Haldane's rule to all possible F1 hybrids produced from red-ear sunfish, bluegills, and green sunfish indicates that the female is the heterozygametic sex in these three species. Hybridization of male warmouths with females of the three Lepomis species resulted in partial or complete lethals, suggesting that in the warmouth the male is the heterogametic sex.

4.2 Reproductive success of hybrids
The reproductive success of each of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids was investigated in one or more ponds. The occurrence and abundance of F2 hybrids were determined by seining, trapping, shocking, poisoning or draining the ponds after the F1 hybrids were one or more years of age. RB, BR, and BG failed to produce abundant F2 generations when in ponds which contained no other species of fishes. In contrast to these results, BR F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 generations in two ponds in Indiana (Ricker 1948). The other seven kinds of F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few F2 hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. WG F2 hybrids and GW F2 hybrids were stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Both of these F2 hybrids produced large F3 populations.

Backcrosses, outcrosses, a four-species cross, and a three-species cross involving F1 hybrids are listed in Table III. The BW × B backcross was made by stocking adult male BW F1 hybrids and adult female bluegills in a pond which contained no other fishes. The other 12 crosses listed in Table III were made by stripping gametes from ripe adults and rearing the young to the free-swimming fry stage in the laboratory.

R × RW, W × RW, B × RW, G × RW, R × GB, and RB × W young were killed after they developed into free-swimming fry because of the lack of ponds in which they could be stocked. All six kinds of fry appeared to be normal and probably would have developed into adults. Free-swimming fry of the remaining six crosses in the laboratory were stocked in ponds and did develop into adult fishes. BW × B, G × GW, and B × RG populations produced large numbers of young.





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I added 4000 FHM a month ago. Hoping they'll spawn this year. Looking at adding 50 SMB, 300 YP, 400 HBG, and 100 RES this fall if I can find everything. Maybe some HSB also. I'll catch my own CC next year and probably add more fish next year, depending how fast the dam fills.

We dug a few big trenches and put mounds from that dirt throughout the 5-20ft of water. (Depth where the water will be when full) There is really good contour throughout. Also added a bunch of cedar trees in different spots for structure.

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So now I got turned away from HBG, explained I had all predators and HBG will be green sungish in 6 years. Now stocking 500 BG 1-3", 600 YP 2-3", 100 RES, 100 CC, hopefully 100 SMB later if I can get them. I am a little concerned the BG will spawn next year and YP and SMB not for a couple years. Should I be concerned with BG management? There is a lot of tall weed cover.

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Adding pic, water is 12 ft deep around island where they dug out. Will be another 10ft eventually.

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Originally Posted By: crashadp
So now I got turned away from HBG, explained I had all predators and HBG will be green sungish in 6 years. Now stocking 500 BG 1-3", 600 YP 2-3", 100 RES, 100 CC, hopefully 100 SMB later if I can get them. I am a little concerned the BG will spawn next year and YP and SMB not for a couple years. Should I be concerned with BG management? There is a lot of tall weed cover.


Who said they would revert back to GSF?
Did you run this by TJ?
It don't sound right to me. There has been some discussion in past threads on this, and If I recall correctly, there is no need to worry, at least in a way that it will hurt plans.

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Your main concern with your current plan will be keeping the BG from becoming too abundant which is a very common problem without LMB. You mentioned you have tall weed cover which will enhance the problem of too many small BG.

This is a quote from "Talking Points: Smallmouth Bass" by Willis and Cody in Pond Boss Magazine Jan-Feb 2013. Willis and Cody discuss 19 points and basic concepts for growing smallmouth bass.
"Smallmouth bass simply are not as effective of predators as largemouth bass so do not consider them pond equivalents. If you have a 3 acre pond with a 25% coverage of submergent aquatic plants during midsummer, a smallmouth bass -- bluegill combination will not be a good idea. The smallmouths will not control the bluegills, which will overpopulate and stunt. Similarly, smallmouth bass will not control yellow perch in this type of habitat. Too much protective cover for the perch, and the smallies will not control them."

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/21/16 09:25 AM.

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