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Thanks so much for all the info. I read somewhere on the forum about stocking 50/50 mix of native and florida to produce a large but more catchable bass. I have a 2 acre new pond with only cnbg and res. If I stock 4-6 inch lmb would 100 be sufficient for my pond? What do ya'll think about the 50/50 mix? I want to do this right the first time!!


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100 LMB would be plenty IMO. For a non trophy LMB pond in your location I would rather have a mix of 100% Flas and 100% northerns than all F-1s.
















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Out breeding depression. I was looking for a fish supplier a couple of years back. One to stock my pond. I called up a well known advertised place in E. Texas and brought up my questions about F 1's as per what I had read from a large National fish supplier. I was rudely spoken too to say the least, (like I was a dumb arse) and was told of F 1 depression and how they would not sell F 1's. Needles to say I never contacted this fish supplier again. He may have had just a bad day but it made me do more research and that is how I discovered Todd @ Overton's fishery. Todd answered all my D A questions about F 1's and was nice and informative. I went with his Texas legacy lmb.

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Really great info ewest. thanks!


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Originally Posted By: Flame
Thanks so much for all the info. I read somewhere on the forum about stocking 50/50 mix of native and florida to produce a large but more catchable bass. I have a 2 acre new pond with only cnbg and res. If I stock 4-6 inch lmb would 100 be sufficient for my pond? What do ya'll think about the 50/50 mix? I want to do this right the first time!!

James text Todd and ask him about a mix- second year you will have more bass than you will know what to do with, they really breed fast

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50 LMB per arce is about right for a forage full pond unless you want a trophy LMB pond - then 30-35 per arce is right .
















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The Lone Star Legacy Bass are now available and are right at 2.25"-2.5". These are pure strain genetics, not hybrids.


It is my opinion that we should be stocking pure genetics wherever possible, especially in larger bodies of water where you manage for long-term results. Hybrids are "cool" in smaller systems in the short-term, but in the long-term? Once you allow hybridization of the genetics then you can't go back into the past and undo.

For those of you who encourage, recommend, or allow hybridization among the different largemouth bass subspecies, I wonder if you may not know what you are missing with pure genetics.

I would like to know of some real world examples where hybridization between species OR subspecies has produced quality and desired specimens after several generations of breeding.

In the gardening world you can get hybrid tomato plants that are super strong, disease resistant, productive, etc, but you are NOT supposed to use the seeds from these plants. If you do plant seeds from hybrid tomato plants then who knows what you will get, but it will likely be very different (in a negative way) than the original F1 generation cross.

You can find countless other examples in the plant and animal world of degradation after the F1 generation cross. So why would largemouth bass genetics be any different? What proof of outbreeding depression might you be looking for? Since fish health, growth rate, behavior, etc, are influenced by many different factors in play at the same time, it is difficult to pinpoint outbreeding depression as a significant reason for poorly-performing fish.


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This may have been already asked and answered somewhere in the PB archives, but.... What is it about certain species of bass that preclude them living in the northern states? Just simple intolerance of cold water temps? Just another DA question (as TGW1 said above)... :-) Plus I'm jealous of the guys who can grow those monster Lone Star Legacy Bass down south...


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Cold intolerance is the known reason. Many studies confirm this. There are plus and minuses and corresponding reasons for each LMB stocking approach. There is no one "I am right" plan. See info below map for others view.

There is little to no proof that outbreeding depression applies to Fla/North crosses whether they are F-1 , 2 or FXs (all referenced as integrades) in there natural integrade zone .


Status of Subspecies as of 2011 subject to change:
Florida Largemouth Bass and the Northern Largemouth Bass were once considered to be subspecies. Many state fisheries agencies still consider them to be subspecies and treat them as such, often stocking “Florida strain largemouth” on top of the native Largemouth Bass stocks. Although the American Fisheries Society (AFS) also officially still recognizes them as subspecies, biologists specializing in the field are calling for them to be separated into two distinct species: Florida Bass and Largemouth Bass. This is based off genetic studies that suggest that the genetic variation between Florida Bass and Largemouth Bass . A natural intergrade zone occurs where the two species’ ranges meet and overlap in the deep southeast. Artificial intergrade zones exist where state agencies have stocked Florida Bass over Largemouth Bass for decades.





http://sepond.com/fish-stocking/largemouth-bass --- Southeastern Pond Management approach


Here is American Sport Fish’s approach.

Florida bass in the southern latitudes grow faster after age two, and live longer than Northern bass. They also have the potential of reaching larger sizes. These are record-breakers. However, they are less tolerant of cold temperatures, and they can be harder to catch. As they grow older, they learn to ignore artificial bait. Pond owners often complain about not being able to catch larger Florida bass, except on live bait. Nevertheless, their size and long lifespan make them excellent additions to many ponds.

Through more than 15 years of genetic selection, American Sport Fish has developed a very aggressive strain of northern bass called the Gorilla bass. Aggressive feeding behavior is an inheritable trait, and each generation of bass has been selected for its aggressive behavior. These fish are strong feeders and respond well to artificial baits even when they become older. They are more tolerant of colder water than the Florida bass..Adult Gorilla bass are often added to lakes that are home to a majority of Florida bass, to increase the angler's catch rate and to introduce their aggressive feeding genetics to Florida bass populations.

Created by our team of scientists, the Tiger Bass® has been specially bred for aggressiveness and fast growth. In well-managed lakes, Tiger Bass® have consistently gained more than two pounds per year. Biologists refer to this fish as a true F-1, because it is a cross between two pure subspecies of bass: a special strain of aggressive Northern Bass (which we call Gorilla Bass) and a pure strain of Florida Bass that comes from proven trophies (females from 13 to 16 pounds). American Sport Fish is the only hatchery licensed to produce and sell the Tiger Bass®
The world record bass, which weighed 22 pounds and 4 ounces, came from southern Georgia and is thought to be a northern/ Florida intergrade. Our Tiger Bass® have already gained weights of 15 pounds in eight years. We expect them to break state records in the next several years.



Last edited by ewest; 07/20/17 11:40 AM.















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Thanks for the graphic, again. So the two different subspecies of largemouth bass (Northern and Florida) could be designated as distinctly different species after all? Do we not have enough information to make this determination just yet?? What are we waiting on to make this determination? And what would be the implications?

If those "biologists in the field" are successful in officially separating these into different species altogether, then that would imply that the Largemouth Bass (Northern) and Florida Largemouth Bass genetics are more distinct and distant from each other than we thought originally.

Another implication of this finding may be that hybridizing the two different species would result in possibly even more serious degradation of the integrity of the genetics of the original parental species after the F1 generation.

So what are some other examples of quality specimens produced from long-term (past the F1 generation) hybridization across distinct fish species lines? Hybrid Catfish? Hybrid Bluegill? Hybrid Stripers? Tiger Trout? Hybrid Crappie? None of the above. These are just a few easy examples of those crosses that don't work well (or at all) past the F1 generation. Correct me if I am wrong, but same rules apply across the board to all plants and animals.

We have a great deal of experience producing largemouth bass fingerlings, and we even produced and stocked the F1 fingerlings for many years. We were not happy with the long-term results of our F1 stocking program based on electrofishing surveys performed years down the road. In addition, we have surveyed lakes that were stocked originally with F1 bass and have not been impressed. So, while I am most definitely not testing genetic markers nor conducting a proper scientific study, I do insist that my experience matters, and I am trying to move forward with a more successful long-term strategy and program to recommend for my clients.

I believe that we need to take a closer look at long-term effects of largemouth bass hybridization (past the F1 generation) and be prepared to accept that these hybrids are governed by the same laws of nature as everything else.

Stocking lakes and ponds with pure genetics from the start does not eliminate the possibility of hybridization down the road (from contamination of gene pool from outside source), and does not protect you from negative effects of inbreeding, but at least this practice does not PROMOTE hybridization.


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I think the map and studies are clear. There is a natural integrate zone across the SE including parts of TX over thousands of years. No reports of outbreeding depression noted in these populations. Other hatcheries noted have a different opinion and offer options to their clients. I am simply reporting the info for PB readers to note in their decision making process .

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Does the graphic address outbreeding depression?

Here is a quote from the past from Dr. Wes Neal:

Originally Posted By: wneal
All:

I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest with this one. As I tried to explain during the talk, this is not a major concern in pond management because genetics are secondary to food, age, and water temperature. However, outbreeding depression is clearly demonstrated in other agriculture. Farmers raise F1 hybrid corn, but they never save the seeds for replanting. Why? Because the subsequent generation does not perform as well. Now bass are not corn, and Florida bass and northern bass are much more similar than the parents of many hybrid species. In reality, we probably will never empiracally test it, since it would take 10 to 20 years to trully demonstrate, and there are too many confounding factors to sort out. I would be more worried about inbreeding depression - that is small gene pool - than outbreeding depression. However, if you would like some follow up reading, I list a few studies that you can check out below. You'll notice similar names on all of the papers because they are the primary researchers working with bass genetics. One study that addressed the potential for outbreeding depression is:

Philipp, D. P., J. E. Claussen, T. W. Kassler, and J. M. Epifanio. 2002. Mixing stocks of largemouth bass reduces fitness through outbreeding depression. Pages 349-363 in D. P. Philipp and M. S. Ridgeway, editors. Black bass: ecology, conservation, and management. American Fisheries Society, Symposium 31, Bethesda, Maryland.

This study did not directly test the outbreeding depression of F1 hybrids but instead it looked at the effect of stocking one genetic stock on the other. However, the mechanism is the same.

Dave Philipp had several earlier papers that addressed the potential for later generation intergrades to have reduced performance:

Philipp, D. P. 1991. Genetic implications of introducing Florida largemouth bass. Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences 48 (Supplement 1):58-65.

Philipp, D. P. 1992. Stocking Florida largemouth bass outside its native range. Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 121:688-691.

Philipp, D. P., and G. S. Whitt. 1991. Survival and growth of northern, Florida, and reciprocal F1 hybrid largemouth bass in Central Illinois. Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 120:58-64.

Another paper that I recommend is:

Kassler, T. W., J. B. Koppelman, T. J. Near, et al. 2002. Molecular and morphological analyses of the black basses: implications for taxonomy and conservation. Pages 291-322 in D. P. Philipp and M. S. Ridgeway, editors. Black bass: ecology, conservation, and management. American Fisheries Society, Symposium 31, Bethesda, Maryland.

In this manuscript, the authors offer substantial evidence that suggests "Florida bass" and "largemouth bass" are two separate species.

Think about it, stew over it, but I hope you talk nicely about me in the end smile


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Eric and Todd,

I like information and Idea sharing. This is informative to me.

The truth of the matter is that our ponds have what they have. If I were to start over and create a new "big pond," I don't think I would do it any different with the exception of where I got my original stockers.

I manage my waters. If I find a fish I don't want in my pond, it finds its way to the skillet. We eat a lot of fish.

A wise man told me once, if you have a pond and manage it properly, you are going to kill a lot of fish. Another wise man told me to judge each fish on its own merits. If it makes the cut, it goes back, if it does not it goes to the skillet, or it becomes bait.

I understand the both sides of this argument, pure science is where I side. It has to be that way. Its in my DNA.


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Yes Todd that is what the studies are about - the genetics of LMB. I think and do others that Wes is incorrect on the subject. I answered his point of view in the thread you copied and pasted. Funny you did not include that in what you posted. But what is important is not what you think or what I may believe but that the PB readers get all sides of an issue and can judge for themselves. That is what I have done here - be sure all sides are set out for PB readers.

Here is the prior thread - lots here with many peoples thoughts

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=399773&page=1

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Well, funny as it may be, I am not trying to hide or bias anything here. The forum is open for all to see. I simply cut and pasted a past clip from Dr Neal and I received the balanced reply just as I expected. I can appreciate the balanced debate and I hope that Dr Neal will continue to explain his position or provide more evidence.


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I hope you do not mind a novice interest in this thread and a observation.
First guys and maybe a lady or two, thanks for the data and research paper to review. Most of the novices here like me, I will assume", do not even know where to go to find a small portion for what most of you know. In short, most of you will forget more than most of us will ever know.

But all that said, I find it fascinating that those in the know, are somewhat at odds on exactly what is what with fish in general and bass species in the thread posts. I kinda understand why and realize that we are in our child hood or maybe teenage years in knowledge of fish in general.

I am sure it is hard enough when one knows the pond and it's surroundings, the water and chemical makeup,genetics of the fish and % mixtures of each in the ecosystem,bla,bla,bla, to manage and control to some degree the outcome(s).

I hope all of you continue to share your views and knowledge of what you know to be true, at least now and what you find to be true in the future, so all of us can benefit in a quality fishery however large or small.

In short, I think nearly all intellectual intercourse and or civil discourse, helps us all to understand better how to reach our goals.

Last edited by mpc; 05/20/16 01:26 PM. Reason: clarification

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This is the kind of thread that makes our forum thrive. Well done! Respectful interaction and display of facts, experiences, science and thoughtful opinions. Love it!

Over the past few years, our little company has been involved setting up some intriguing genetic studies. As the data has been coming in, it's fascinating. One lake in particular, near Athens, Texas, was the first private lake stocked with pure strain Florida bass, back in 1972. The fish population was eliminated, forage fish stocked and the Florida bass added. TPWD spearheaded this project, preparing to make decisions about using the Florida strain in Lake Fork. They stocked 5 private lakes. To this day, there is heavy influence of Florida genes, some of which remain pure. As more data comes in, we'll write about it Pond Boss. Some of that data was presented at Pond Boss VI Conference and Expo, and it will happen again at the next conference.

My personal experience with the different strains and intergrade crosses suggest we start with the best genetics for that region. I certainly understand Todd's point of view and we can't argue much with Eric's statement from the scientific community. The most exciting thing about all this is what we don't know. Just in the last few years, there's been a push to figure out just how important genetics are, compared to environmental circumstances. I'd say this...if we don't have the best habitat, the best food chain and a thoughtful harvest program, genetics don't matter for squat. It's a combination of all these things. Plus, even when you simply look at genetics, end gain is profoundly influenced by environment. Think about it this way. Say you buy and stock Todd's bass. You KNOW they are genetically superior to other fish. Say you stock that 100 per acre in a new lake with lots of food to eat. How many will grow beyond 10 pounds? How many will make 15?
You can discount 50 of those 100 immediately. They are males. Males don't grow that large. Then, you can eliminate at least half the females. Those won't be aggressive enough, or have the best temperament. What about the remaining 25? Will they have the opportunity? In fisheries management, genetics are important if you want any chance to grow big fish. But, they aren't the end of the means. Staying with the inbreeding or outbreeding depression. I still believe in survival of the fittest. If Todd's fish make it to their second year, and spawn, how many of those babies will make it to double-digits? Zero? They have greater hurdles than these first stocked fish, regardless of their genetic heritage.

Great debate, folks. Keep it up...this kind of exchange keeps the intellectual juices flowing and leads to a healthy exchange of ideas.


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One point I haven't seen mentioned on this thread is catchability. Supposedly F1 LMB are more aggressive because northern LMB genetics are present. Of course, the famous "Tiger" F1 bass are based on this idea, a cross between very large Fla females and very aggressive northern LMB males.

Then again, I've heard that Lone Star Legacy purebred Florida bass are selected for aggressiveness, so may be more catchable than other Fla types.

This is important to me as I've got four young grandkids and I want them to have a shot at a big bass five years down the road.

Any comments or observations would be welcome!

Last edited by anthropic; 05/20/16 04:09 PM.

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Thank you Bob Lusk! Ok, we can all hug each other now, and keep on plugging along... LOL. I appreciate the attitude, the opinions, the science, the experiences, and the feedback.

I just don't understand how largemouth bass get exempted from the outbreeding depression that may result from hybridization and time. If the scientific community decides to separate these subspecies into distinct species (I assume for good reason), then I would have an even more difficult time with the idea that largemouth bass are exempt. I realize that there is a natural intergrade zone and that many large fish have been intergrades. I still feel as if many of the intergrades, especially individuals that are many generations down the Fx road, may be limited in some form or fashion.

Part of the reason that we at Overton Fisheries offer pure strain largemouth bass genetics is to keep things simple at our hatchery, but to still provide options for clientele. You can stock northern largemouth or florida largemouth (lone star legacy bass), or you can make your own super F1s by stocking both strains together.

On a personal level, I intend to make it my duty to be a steward of the Lone Star Legacy Bass genetics. I intend to preserve and improve upon, if possible, the pure strain genetics that I have acquired. These genetics have a solid history and a great story, and you certainly can't find them everywhere.

As far as the catchability issue goes there are a lot of factors involved. I consider most all of the northern largemouth genetics available now to be a "domesticated" fish, as they are very easily pellet-trained (can train on day 1 as 2" fish), and they (if feed trained) may follow you around the pond hoping for a hand-out. The northern strain are no doubt more ASSERTIVE (willing to try anything) than the florida strain. If you stock F1s that were produced from feed-trained northern stock, then the F1s will get a lot of the assertive behavior from the northern counterpart. On the other hand, our Lone Star Legacy Bass are a florida strain and can be considered a wild type. The florida largemouth bass strains are difficult to feed train, and have stronger natural instincts for survival, so more difficult to catch. Also depends on pond size, fishing pressure, live bait/artificials, stocking density, baitfish availability, etc, just to name a few of the factors..


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There is a lot more to come on this topic.

FYI to those who don't know . I have used Todd's fish ( Fla LMB And CNBG etc) and am pleased with the results.

Get PB mag - great articles on this subject and so many more. I will post one such article later.(no access right now).

iMO the reason no studies show outbreeding depression in natural LMB integrades is because what you are seeing in this zone is evolution at work - a new sub species of LMB is developing before our eyes.
















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ewest, thank you for posting of your Lone Star Legacy LMB stocking. By doing so, I find that it gives me nice feeling. I followed that same path. smile
Now, can we speak of Dr. Neil's larger concerns of inbreeding depression? This is something that concerns me. Maybe Todd will comment, since we are talking about the Lone Star Legacy Bass. Is there a point in time that I should refresh the gene pool in my pond? And if so, would these additions from Todd be any different from what I already have in the pond?

Thanks

Tracy


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I did not stock legacy LMB . Just pure Fla along with northerns and F-1s. This was pre legacys. Have also stocked in other methods .

I too have questions about inbreeding in fish. Have been told by fisheries scientists different and opposite results and thoughts. I have not seen any study address this in pond fish. Will do some looking.

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About 7-8 years ago, I regularly visited a pond related forum sponsored by the Mississippi Extension Service monitored by several marine biologists including Dr. Neal occasionally. I was party to a conversation about outbreeding depression with Dr. Neal and others which was later brought to this forum by Burgermeister in the link provided by Eric. I continued the conversation with Dr. Neal via email for several months after the thread ended on the Miss. forum but was raging on Pond Boss.

In short, he had two main thoughts:
1) that food and environment are much more important factors to LMB growth than genetics.
2) It would be helpful to refresh the gene pool occasionally. He suggested that I add a few pure Fla. LMB then add a few pure Northern LMB a few years later and continue this practice into the future. I did add the Floridas but haven't added the northerns yet.


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djstauder, in all my research about deer it is Food and water first, Cover 2nd and genetics 3rd to grow big bucks. This was proven by a study from Old Miss. You might like that, I see you are from Miss. smile And I think it takes all three in the same order when talking about LMB.

Tracy

Last edited by TGW1; 05/24/16 06:19 AM. Reason: sp

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