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Bill D. Offline OP
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Guys,

I've found a source for Spotfin Shiners (SFS) but they are not cheap so I want to maximize my chance of success. The plan would be to try stocking some early spring in line with the plan to improve the forage base in my pond. Does anybody have any experience they can share? Specifically, spawning habitat, preferred cover and pond bottom structure were my first thoughts but all inputs are appreciated..

Thanks!

Bill D.

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/30/16 08:49 PM.

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Believe it or not this a subject that I can semi-intelligently comment on. Problem is I can't post pics here. Pm on the way later today.


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Bill D. Offline OP
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Thanks Bob. Looking forward to the PM.

I found this in an old thread that others may be interested in....

Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
...

... there are just a handful of shiner species that will do well in ponds.

Golden shiner
spotfin shiner
satinfin shiner
red shiner
spottail shiner

Other than those 5, there are some species than can live in ponds but will not flourish and if they ain't flourishing they ain't making good forage so there is not point in stocking them.

I know Bill has and is playing around with a few other species of shiner to see if he can get them to spawn, but thus far it appears he isn't having any luck. Most shiner species require running water, clean gravel and other specific requirements or all of the above. Few ponds have that...

Last edited by Bill D.; 01/31/16 09:21 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Bob-O
Believe it or not this a subject that I can semi-intelligently comment on. Problem is I can't post pics here. Pm on the way later today.


Here are a few pics of Bob O's FHM and SFS spawning habitat. I will leave it to him to explain construction, placement, etc.

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Bob O FH spawning structure 6-12.JPG Bob O FH pallet after 1 yr.JPG Bob O Spotfin spawn.JPG

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The first pic is a two story, more spawning compartments.

The second is an average pallet that is divided into 56 compartments that had been it the water for one yr. I did this after reading about Lusk finding an old fashioned wood pop case floating in a lake. He said he found FHM eggs in each compartment. I also read that the FHM will defend the spawning area for about 18"s in each direction if they SEE a potential intruder. Evidently in the pop case they couldn't see each other thus no confrontation. This type of spawning area is used by both FHM and BNM. I tied a x-mass tree under some for a hiding area for the new hatchlings.

The third pic is of SFS spawning structure. The material used is the same as the dividers in the pallets. It's that plastic that looks like cardboard. It is used to make signs for elections and to mark what type of seed was used in corn fields. I went to a grain elevator and asked for outdated signs. Also went around the day after voting ended. The spacing between layers ranges from 1/8" to 1/4". I hang these off my pier ranging in depth from 6"s down to 24"s. The closer to the surface get eggs sooner cause the water warms up quicker but all will have eggs eventually.

I swish these up and down about every other day cause my pond has lots of suspended clay and lots of dust from the Co Rd just to the west of my pond. The eggs need water flow to develop correctly.


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Great info Bob-O. Thanks!!

I picked up some of that corrugated plastic from Home Depot. It was pretty cheap.

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Pretty neat Bob. I had missed that one.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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Bob,

Sounds like you've succeeded in establishing sustaining populations of both SFS and BNM. A couple of things I've picked up from you so far is the SFS are crevice spawners and the BNM spawn like FHM. What kind of vegetation do you have and any other cover? What are the other fish in the pond? Any other advice?


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Bill, I do have a very good forage population. I still go get some fresh SPS and BNM every other yr. Don't think it's necessary but it's always a good time.

The first yr I planted little clumps of Eel grass about 4' apart only along one shore. It doesn't spread real fast and took about 4-5 summers to fill that whole shore(100') to about 8' out. Did'nt want it but have Curly leaf pond weed and Chara but keep it pretty well in check. I have several X-mass trees sunk and marked. One is directly under my pier for the sake of newly hatched SFS. That ended up being a good surprise, because the larger predators started hanging around it and makes good fishin for the kids. I also planted about 6 hybrid Lily plants but they're mostly for looks. Also have a reef made of tires that is about 7' long and 5' tall in 10' of water.

My pond is only 1/4 acre so my predators are limited in #s. I have WE, YP, SMB, HSB, 3 RE, unwelcome hitchhiked in CC and put in some Tilapia each June.

"Any other advice"? OMG when I read that I had ta LOL. Of course I have tons of other advice but I'll be nice and limit it.
1 DON'T ASK ME FOR ADVICE!! If it weren't for this site and especially Cody and Cecil I'd have a hole full of water with many stunted unwanted fish and weeds. Yes, even the weeds would probably be stunted.
2 For all newbies and folks planning a pond these are some of the things I wish I had done.
A I should have had a written contract specifying exactly what I wanted. One of those things would have been a guarantee against leaks.
B Should have hand sorted every fish and plant that went in, no unwanted CC.
C Check in here and ask about anything you're planning to do. I put in 6 Koi without checkin and took 5 yrs ta get rid of.
3 Be patient, good things take time to develop. Besides the days, months and yrs slide by pretty darned fast. Tomorrow will be the tenth anniversary of my first post here. Probably should apologize to all who have had to withstand that but won't.
4 No matter what your goals and dreams are going in, don't lose any sleep over set backs and mistakes. One day I was watchin the grandkids playin along shore(of course not on the beach) and it dawned on me that they wouldn't care if the pond was only three ft deep and only housed turtles, snakes, tadpoles and crawdads. Make it FUN!!
5 Three 1/3 acre ponds are way better than a 1 acre pond.
6 Aerate

Ta quote Forrest, "And that's all I have ta say about that"

Last edited by Bob-O; 02/01/16 03:15 PM.

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I think I hear a good story coming...

Bob-O, can you provide a link to your saga with getting the KOI out if you wrote it up in a past post?

Or is short, why did it take 5 years, and how did you eventually succeed in the end?

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Double C, I did not document all the frustration my own ignorance caused. It took sooo long cause I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer. I shot one with a rifle, one with a shotgun, a friend caught one on pellets, speared one and can't remember one of em. The occasional GBH speared a 16" SMB but do ya think it would kill a lowly carp?


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Thanks for the info Bob!


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Someone is a good shot who got it with a rifle smile

Thanks!

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I have a 3x9 scope that I can count squirrel whiskers with. Shot it in the mouth while it was suckin pellets.


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This may be a stupid question...is there a benefit to spotfin shiners vs golden shiners?

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Originally Posted By: Zslow6
...is there a benefit to spotfin shiners vs golden shiners?


As usual, I'm sure the answer is "It Depends." I am not a pro but for my pond, IMO, SFS and BNM are better suited to my predator base than GSH. SFS and BNM both stay smaller and should remain within the mouthgap of my primary predators, SMB, YP and WE.

GSH can get 10 inches or bigger which would make them just extra biomass for me when they reach that size. My thought is, once GSH out grow my predator's mouthgap, they will just reduce the carrying capacity and available small forage of my pond for my preferred species. As more GSH recruits make it to larger sizes each year, they could end up being a real problem.

If I was going to have a LMB pond, I would stock the GSH.

Again, I'm not a pro...Just my 1 cent


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I see. I tried looking them up but didn't get to much information. Also I'm at work so my ability to search things is limited ha!

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Thanks Bill, that is what I was thinking but wasn't sure. I agree that if it can't be eatin it will probably be doin too much eatin.


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Good info. above on habitat Bob. Thanks for sharing! I chose to stock the GSH because they do get the larger size... To me its an advantage over the other shiners as they'll have a better chance of long term survival and will continue to reproduce and feed the predators in the pond. I think as the SMB get to the larger size that they should be able to handle some of the larger sized GSH. Any one have a definite answer on that? Can a 3-4 pound SMB eat a 10" GSH? Im guess they could without a problem...

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I use 6-8" nose hooked GSH livelining for HSB and SMB with success - they find them hard to resist struggling on the surface. I haven't tried GSH up to 10", but the 6-8" they have no problems with. HSB up to 28" and SMB up to 18" so far.


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Good info TJ, thanks.


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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
I use 6-8" nose hooked GSH livelining for HSB and SMB with success - they find them hard to resist struggling on the surface. I haven't tried GSH up to 10", but the 6-8" they have no problems with. HSB up to 28" and SMB up to 18" so far.


Good info! I'm glad to hear my SMB can handle GSH. I found 3 GSH hitchhiking in some FHM in the fall of 2014 and went ahead and stocked them. Fall 2015 I had a small school of 100 or so GSH cruising around. What are the odds? No way that would have happened if I tried to get a population going with only stocking 3 fish!

I just read in another current thread that a BOW needs a minimum percentage of minimum size LMB to control Gizzard Shad (GSD) as they can reach lengths of 12 inches+ and take over a BOW without sufficient predation. Anybody know if there is a similar rule of thumb for GSH?

Last edited by Bill D.; 02/02/16 06:40 PM. Reason: Clarification

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Originally Posted By: Zslow6
I see. I tried looking them up but didn't get to much information. Also I'm at work so my ability to search things is limited ha!


I really couldn't find much either when I searched. Lots of posts with folks recommending them but not really much info beyond that. I think that may be because there hard to come by in stocking quantities at a reasonable price unless you have a place you can catch your own. That's one of the reasons why I started this thread. Maybe somebody can learn from my mistakes! grin


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Bill, I think you are correct about not being able to buy in any quantity. I had some good dumb luck last summer raising some in a rain barrel. I think this yr I will transform my live well cage into a SFS nursery and hope for the best. Maybe try ta swap them to other pondmiesters for something. You know, maybe squatting in their lawns(no BIG campfires) and fishin their ponds. Maybe if I'm real lucky havin their wives cook up some of the catch. Hint, hint.


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Works for me but I may just join ya by the campfire! Great way to spend a nice summer evening.


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