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Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424332 09/19/15 01:41 PM
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Thanks Rex but I'm working on a simple plug in pump with a short intake and discharge to a five gallon bucket that doesn't require a siphon or long hoses. I want to be in and out of the tank with no prep time and little disturbance to the fish. Just flip a switch, point the intake wand at solids and be done.


Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/19/15 05:13 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424335 09/19/15 03:20 PM
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Same here...get me in and outta there, ASAP.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424361 09/20/15 08:21 AM
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What do you do for aeration Bruce?

I'm getting away from membrane diffusers as they seem to flow unevenly over time and burp large bubbles. It's something that's easily seen in a tank setup but probably missed in ponds.

Common sense says it's due to clogging, but even after surface cleaning I still have issues. Of course the damn things are close to impossible to disassemble for cleaning the other side of the membrane without some kind of custom built tool. (I think someone told me Ted Lea had built one?) It would be nice to take them completely apart to thoroughly clean both sides of the rubber membrane with muriatic acid. They're too wide to sit in the bottom of a bucket without using a lot of muriatic acid to get the acid to cover them.

Funny thing is some of the membranes run flawlessy indefinitely while others have issues in short order.

I'm now gravitating to a dual pvc manifold with a nine inch stone on each side. No need to mount it to the center drain as it's self weighting. And it can be easily lifted from the tank for cleaning or flushing solids that collect around the center drain.

And it's a cheaper set up vs. the membrane diffusers and considering I'm now setting up my fourth high school with an recirculating system...


Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/20/15 08:33 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: Aquarium question
Cecil Baird1 #424365 09/20/15 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
What do you do for aeration Bruce?

I'm getting away from membrane diffusers as they seem to flow unevenly over time and burp large bubbles. It's something that's easily seen in a tank setup but probably missed in ponds.

Common sense says it's due to clogging, but even after surface cleaning I still have issues. Of course the damn things are close to impossible to disassemble for cleaning the other side of the membrane without some kind of custom built tool. (I think someone told me Ted Lea had built one?) It would be nice to take them completely apart to thoroughly clean both sides of the rubber membrane with muriatic acid. They're too wide to sit in the bottom of a bucket without using a lot of muriatic acid to get the acid to cover them.

Funny thing is some of the membranes run flawlessy indefinitely while others have issues in short order.

I'm now gravitating to a dual pvc manifold with a nine inch stone on each side. No need to mount it to the center drain as it's self weighting. And it can be easily lifted from the tank for cleaning or flushing solids that collect around the center drain.

And it's a cheaper set up vs. the membrane diffusers and considering I'm now setting up my fourth high school with an recirculating system...



Believe it or not I am migrating towards pure oxygen systems. I have found some regulators that will go down to 1/64 of a liter per minute. You can run a small tank for weeks on that. Since it is only $11 to fill a tank I'm not sure that this is a more expensive than the power to run an aeration system. Plus, I'm not at the mercy of potential power outages. Using two different tanks gives me redundancy and healthy fish.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424370 09/20/15 11:28 AM
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Very interesting.

I'm presently looking at putting in a two way oxygen solenoid in line with an oxygen tank that will always be in a closed position when the power is on, but opens to release oxygen if their is a power outage. This is for my fourth high school. Not crazy about the prices I'm seeing in the Pentair/ AES catalog for one, and can't help thinking the mark up is outrageously high like much of the rest of what they sell. I'm researching sources right now: Asco, Grainger, etc.

Myself and one of the high school's is using a Tripplite APS750 inverter with two deep cycle batteries wired in parallel to get up to 10 hours of emergency back up power. We're talking close to $300.00 for the inverter and at least another couple hundred for the deep cycle batteriies. Was hoping the solenoid option would be cheaper. But it may be a wash as far as cost once the oxygen tank, regulator, and solenoid cost is added up if solenoid valves are as expensive as they are in the Pentar/AES catalog. OTOH the ag classes do welding which would means they have access to tanks, oxygen, and regulators.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/20/15 12:01 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424373 09/20/15 01:49 PM
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Peroxygen - aka hydrogen peroxide.


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Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424375 09/20/15 02:01 PM
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I wonder if one of these home oxygen generator/concentrators would be sufficient, as well as economically viable............. Perhaps one could be used in conjunction with a back-up tank, or a back-up electrical generator.

Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424384 09/20/15 04:13 PM
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I suppose it would matter how much oxygen they produce and how many psi although considering how shallow tanks are it wouldn't take many psi. You could be on to something.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424386 09/20/15 05:09 PM
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Bruce, do you recall what size tank is being filled for $11?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424391 09/20/15 06:27 PM
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How do they designate size? I'm kind of ignorant on that. It's a commonly used medical cylinder.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424393 09/20/15 06:41 PM
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The system I'm familiar with uses an alpha code based on tank height and diameter. BUT, those are industrial cylinders, not medical. It may be a completely different system.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424400 09/20/15 07:45 PM
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Maybe measure height and diameter of the cylinder?

Getting some good leads on closed two way 110 volt solenoids for gases and found one on Ebay for only $35.00 brand new! Not sure if that is what I need but have contacted the distributor/seller.

Also have an email out to a local distrubutor of solenoids.

If anyone is interested I can pass on the info once I get a system set up? This may be a heck of a lot cheaper than an inverter and batteries for power back up. Might even be feasible for folks that have aquariums that don't want to lose their fish during an extended power outage.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/20/15 07:50 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: Aquarium question
Cecil Baird1 #424406 09/20/15 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
This may be a heck of a lot cheaper than an inverter and batteries for power back up. Might even be feasible for folks that have aquariums that don't want to lose their fish during an extended power outage.
Interesting ideas from you and Bruce concerning the use of O2 cylinders for aeration and backup aeration.

If I may, I would suggest that y'all periodically crank the adjustment screw in and out on the regulator, and turn the cylinder valve off and on a few times. From my experience with oxygen regulators, I've learned that the internal parts have a tendency to stick together after sitting motionless for an extended period of time. Especially the high pressure seat. Doesn't cost much to fix, but it can be very inconvenient. It'd probably be a good idea to have a rebuild kit on hand.

BTW, according to the specs, the oxygen generators I linked too in my previous post produce 96% oxygen, at rates of 5 to 10 liters per minute. Not sure about PSI.

Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424416 09/20/15 11:41 PM
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Gully Washer,

Are they rated for continuous use? That is, can they generate oxygen on a continuous basis or do they need to stop periodically? No clue so that is why I'm asking.

And just to be clear the back up system with the solenoid is not an original idea of mine. I found it in a couple of texts but of course the information was not detailed.

5 to 10 lpm is lower than what I run in my tanks (I run about 20 to 30 lpm from my center diffuser, but it could be enough to prevent a fish kill if the tank is deep enough to allow enough contact time.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/20/15 11:49 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424433 09/21/15 08:41 AM
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I got the solenoid thing bassackwards! I misread the article. According to an engineer on another forum that is a distributor for Asco solenoids in Oklahoma, I want a solenoid that is N.O. (Normally open) but when it's plugged in it closes. Then when the power goes out it releases oxygen by opening.

Indeed the following paragraph says just that:


Good Morning Cecil,
Just to be clear, solenoid valves are specified ... "what condition will the valve be with NO power to the coil".
So a normally open valve will be OPEN when the coil is NOT energized, closed with the coil energized.
If I understand your plan correctly, you want the valve to open with a loss of power to allow flow of oxygen into the fish tank....?
So you need a N.O. valve.........mh




Emergency Oxygen

For a quick response to a power outage, one option is to have several high-pressure cylinders of oxygen that are connected to an inexpensive normally open oxygen-rated solenoid valve that is simply plugged into a wall outlet. When there is power, the sole- noid is energized and closed. When the power goes out, the sole- noid opens and oxygen flows. A simple oxygen manifold then directs oxygen to an oxygen diffuser in each aquaculture tank. This type of emergency oxygen system can be set up for about U.S. $250.


http://pdf.gaalliance.org/pdf/GAA-Ebeling-March10.pdf

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/21/15 08:43 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424436 09/21/15 08:48 AM
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That engineer is correct. You want a solenoid that is open at rest, (normal) and closes under power. You also want to be sure the solenoid is rated for continuous use.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Re: Aquarium question
Cecil Baird1 #424502 09/21/15 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Gully Washer,

Are they rated for continuous use? That is, can they generate oxygen on a continuous basis or do they need to stop periodically? No clue so that is why I'm asking.

I don't know how long they can run continuously, but I'm assuming it's a pretty good while considering that they're used to continuously supply O2 to respiratory patients.

Apparently the machine is comprised of a relatively small number of parts: A small compressor and a self cleaning chemical filter called a molecular sieve which is made up of silicate granules called Zeolite which sieves the nitrogen from the air, concentrating the oxygen.

In a couple of weeks I'm going to visit a family member who lives in a nursing home where they have several of these in use. If I can locate a respiratory therapist who speaks fluent English I'll ask about the machines.

Re: Aquarium question
sprkplug #424505 09/21/15 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
That engineer is correct. You want a solenoid that is open at rest, (normal) and closes under power. You also want to be sure the solenoid is rated for continuous use.


I got this response from a engineer that sells one on Ebay. Thoughts?


Hello. It sounds like you would need a normally open valve that you would normally keep powered (closed) and it would open upon power failure. However, a normally open solenoid valve would have coil life issues being powered basically indefinitely. The only type of valve that could handle this is a motorized ball valve. They don't have coils that get hot. Instead, they use limit switches to stop current flow to the motor when open and closed positions are reached. You would be looking at about $60 for a 1/2" normally open motorized ball valve with a brass body. They use an internal capacitor to drive the valve back to the open position after external power is removed.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424512 09/22/15 06:00 AM
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Cecil, take a look here: http://www.stcvalve.com/Normall-Open-Solenoid-Valve-Specifications_2SO040.htm

I would contact the valve manufacturer and run your plans by them. A continuous valve is intended to be powered, well, continuously, but I agree that it will get hot during normal operation. If a solution could be found that did not involve a continuous flow of current, I would definitely check it out. I'm not familiar with the electrically actuated ball valves, but I would certainly explore that possibility in greater detail if I were you.

Ask a manufacturer about continuous duty in the manner you envision. They should be able to provide you with the duty cycle for the solenoid.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Re: Aquarium question
sprkplug #424554 09/22/15 11:46 AM
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ASCO has a newer series of valves out with Class "H" insulation in the coil winding's. Can handle more heat and won't burn out as quick.

I would never do a control scheme energizing a solenoid on a continuous basis. Prone to failure.

Also, all valves leak that are conveying gas unless you spend some really big bucks, so if you had your emergency O2 system in place, could this not be prone to draining the tank before you really need it? I mean going cheap and not understanding valves when you try to hold them closed with a solenoid.

Re: Aquarium question
JKB #424561 09/22/15 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: JKB
ASCO has a newer series of valves out with Class "H" insulation in the coil winding's. Can handle more heat and won't burn out as quick.

I would never do a control scheme energizing a solenoid on a continuous basis. Prone to failure.

Also, all valves leak that are conveying gas unless you spend some really big bucks, so if you had your emergency O2 system in place, could this not be prone to draining the tank before you really need it? I mean going cheap and not understanding valves when you try to hold them closed with a solenoid.


Thanks for the info. Didn't know the gas would slowly leak.

Might not be that big of a deal if it's not too drastic of leakage, as the schools have oxygen tanks on hand (welding) and can monitor O2 via the manifold/pressure gauge, and replace if needed. As you know O2 itself is not that expensive.

The other alternative are the inverters and batteries. The batteries don't last either.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424567 09/22/15 02:36 PM
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Here's some more info from an ASCO distributor on an aquaponcs forum I frequent. Keep in mind I'm just throwing out information I am getting. Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, and I'm appreciative of any feedback I get both good and bad.

Cecil,

A good quality solenoid valve such as ASCO or Parker will be rated for 100% duty cycle, so it is safe and typically operated with the valve energized for years. The power consumption on a 3/8" N.O. ASCO valve is .21 watts holding (yes, 0.21 watts) so it won't generate hardly any heat. Even the inrush on the coil when you first energize the coil is only 50 VA (0.42 watts on a 120/60 coil) I can't speak to some of the import knock-offs.....

I am familiar with spring return ball valves (we rep those too), but have not used (or even heard of a capacitor to use in this arrangement).....but my focus is in the commercial/industrial boiler world, I just get involved with valves as it relates to our core business. The questions that come to mind;
  • if the capacitor should fail, what does the valve do? (seems like it might "freeze" in what ever position it was)[/*]
  • if a N.O. valve coil should burnout, the valve will go open (it has no choice). at this point you will give your fish a nice O2 boost, but no harm-no foul...[/*]
I really like this idea of having a fail-safe backup to keep the fish okay with a loss of power, keep us posted........

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/22/15 02:37 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424570 09/22/15 02:45 PM
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That sounds encouraging Cecil, especially regarding heat buildup.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Re: Aquarium question
sprkplug #424596 09/23/15 01:07 AM
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The ASCO valves I was looking at the other day were all in the 10-20 watt range so I'll have to look at it again. Also have to dig out the ones I have here from previous projects and see what they are.

On a kind side note, I think there is some confusion about watts and amps. 50VA = 0.42 amps at 120V.

Re: Aquarium question
Bruce Condello #424620 09/23/15 08:06 AM
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Thanks Phil.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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