Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Pond Boss Help With a Business Venture

Hi all,

First of all let me introduce myself. My name is Sandra and I'm a first time poster, although I have been reading in these forums for quite some time now. Second, I do have to warn you, this is going to be quite a very lengthy post. I have lots of questions. I also apologize beforehand if I ask any stupid questions, I do that.

Anywho, moving on. I'm from California, but will be moving to Texas in November. I previously owned an online sporting goods store, but wanted to venture out into something bigger. My husband and I are buying our first home next year (in TX) and since we are planning to buy a home with lots of land, I came up with the idea to start a business doing the things we love to do. Our plan is to buy our home with enough acreage to put in a 2-5 acre pond (and/or several smaller ponds as seen in similar fishing hole businesses). I prefer the main pond to be at least 3 acres, but I guess we'll see how that goes, I'm not too sure about the watershed where we'll be buying. It would be a day use (not fish out)and we envision a business much like a large lake, but a much smaller scale. Bait/tackle shop, picnic tables, BBQs, playground, the whole works. We've thought about putting in a few overnight tent sites as well, but that's up in the air.

I notice a lot of members here are from Texas so I would love feedback from them especially, although everyone is free to comment. We plan to be moving to the rural areas around Victoria.

Anywho... My first question is actually pretty simple, then I'll get to the more difficult questions later. How well would a business like this do there in that area? I've actually started drawing up business plans, and so far, the investment wouldn't be outrageous, the start-up would not be horrific like other businesses, and being as it will be family ran, the overhead would be very little. We would be doing something we love to do, and well, frankly, if it fails... we have a large pond on our property. Do we really lose? And no, we don't intend to be rich doing this. Our intention to put our land to good use, do what we love to do, and make our living doing what we love most. (Well, what I love most, I still haven't gotten hubby to take the bait yet... or errr... fish as much as I do.) I've been working for the government for 15 years, and frankly, I realized the money isn't worth it if you hate what you're doing. So I'd rather be broke. But happy. With a pond. Or two. (Or seven.)

Now onto the real questions:

1.) What would the ideal minimum size be for the main pond...? This would be stocked with LMB, BG and/or GSF, some cats probably CC, and FHM or GSH for forage. Like I said prior, I prefer 3-4 acres, but I wanted to know from other fishermen what you would find ideal for a small fishing hole. I see other small businesses with very much smaller ponds, but have several. I would like to start with one main pond with the above stock, and also a smaller family pond stocked with panfish just for the kiddos and the less fishing inclined. What do you think would be the ideal sizes if we were to start with 2 ponds?

Second part of the question... One of my favorite things to fish for are stripers. Would having LMB, SB/HSB and the panfish be ok, or would there be a problem with that variety?

2.) Do Tilapia overwinter in the Gulf areas of TX? Plan is to stock forage long before opening to give some a head start to establish prior to stocking any LMB, and I was wondering if Tilapia can be included. I want to know if I can actually establish a Tilapia population. I don't really expect there will be much left and they may be fished out, but one can hope. To be honest, aside from forage, they would double in purpose... the other being my grill. I may just create a small Tilapia pond for personal use. If this business turns into anything like my obsession of fish tanks, I'll have 12 ponds eventually. (9 tanks in a 2 bedroom apartment at one point, my personal record. 100, 55, and 29 gallon included... I have a problem.)

3.) Trout, would it be a good idea to stock trout off-season when it starts cooling off? I'm thinking rainbows.

4.) Stocking... I know this question would heavily depend on business and how heavy the fishing is... But how often do small scale fisheries like these stock? The large lakes in our area here in Cali that we fish at stock trout 3 times a year. And I believe they no longer stock LMB, they self sustain with a good population. (Although most catches are the stocked rainbows.) The fishing is decent at that schedule, the only drawback being, they're not exactly trophies. (But fun for the family nonetheless.) I do realize we have to compete with free places such as the ocean 20 minutes away, or free streams, so I do realize we want to stock often... I want to give people a good place to fish, but I also don't want to give fish away...

Side note: We will have plenty of amenities and provide the environment for families to enjoy the day such as tables/BBQs/playgrounds... So it won't just be a hole in the ground with water... Hopefully that will draw people to come fish with us...? I realize there's plenty of places to fish in Texas and we have to work to compete... I guess this is where my big concern is... would this even be lucrative, or a waste of money? Like I said before, even if it fails, at least we have ponds and fish on our property, which with or without this business, we would have anyway... But there are a lot of other costs we must start with aside from the excavations and pond that we would have to eat if this turns out to be a bad idea. (Electric, fish stations, tables, BBQ pits, etc...) So I would love feedback as to whether this would even be a good business. Also, it is also a deciding factor on the size of property we wish to buy. If we decide not to open this business, we will not be buying as large of a property as we would with this business in mind.

5.) Day lease or Fish-Out? I am almost dead set on this being a day use entrance fee site, rather than a fish-out. For one, we don't want to hire employees in the beginning, so we want it to be as simple as possible. Having to weigh fish, charge them, watch for people stealing etc., just requires too much... well... work. Realize we have to keep grounds clean, run the store, and do a barrage of other things with just hubby and I. (Son is 15, we may torture him with some work here and there.) On top of that, I have always hated fish-outs. I have a fish-out 10 miles from me, but I would rather go 60 miles to fish a lake that only has an entrance fee. I'm sorry, but I'm not paying someone $30 for a fish, when I have that same chance at a day use with a $10 entrance charge and I can keep all the fish I want. Call me cheap. I know my 1 person opinion isn't the census here... but I just don't feel people want to pay for every fish they catch... Am I over-thinking this? Yes, I know fish-outs exist, and they're obviously still in business... I just don't see how lol. My opinion may be biased here though. I live next to the ocean where fishing is free for me all day, and ten bucks if I have an itch for freshwater. I just have never wanted to pay $20 for one fish. Ever.

6.) Season and off-season hours? We plan to be year round. Like I said prior, I would like to stock cold water fish like trout for the off-season, maybe throw in more stripers. I see other fisheries close pretty early, like 6 or 7. Would there be any benefits in closing late? I also see some places don't open until late, I even saw one open at noon... I know the more hardcore anglers want to get their morning bite, but since that's not the only audience we're catering to, I'm not sure if it's worth the early hours. I guess we would really have to see if and when the business runs and can adjust if needed. But just wanted opinions on the typical hours of parks like these.

Also, I see some fisheries are only open certain days, like Wed-Sun or Fri-Sun. Do you see any benefits of being open 7 days a week? I don't see a big target audience fishing in the day time during the week, other than retired anglers. I personally fish only Fri-Sun now that I'm older with a family. In my younger days I did fish all week, but that's not exactly typical.

Right now, those are the only questions I have in mind. I will be asking plenty more as people answer I'm sure. (Actually, I'm lying, I have lots more, I just don't want the readers' brains exploding. I'll gradually sneak my other questions in the thread, or start new ones.) My main concern is whether people think this is a good business venture, or if the idea is best left in my head. I envision a nice little place where families and fishermen can go for the day, fish if they'd like, BBQ their catch, hang out and enjoy the scenery. Basically all that lakes have to offer, but on a smaller scale. I do plan on a lot of the revenue coming in from sales, rather than entrance fee, if anyone is wondering. Food, drinks, tackle, pole rental... On top of fishing, I also enjoy gardening and animals, which brings me to the experience in breeding many different things, which is where a lot of our bait for sale will come from. I have bred and plan on breeding/selling red wigglers, European Nighcrawlers, and mealworms. I've also bred wax worms and crickets lol. (I used to breed Leopard Geckos, they ate a lot.) The worm compost will also serve a purpose in my garden.

So finally, that's it. Would love to hear suggestions, comments, and feedback from anyone from the angler to the person who's tried this themselves.

Hi Sandra,

Welcome to PBF! IMHO I will be kinda surprised if anyone wants to offer up business advice. I suggest you hire a marketing company to do a marketing survey in your planned area and let them tell you what will and won't work. I am sure the guys will be happy to help with specific pond questions once you get a plan. Just my 2 cents.

Again,

Welcome to PBF!

Bill D.

Sandra I know a young man that is not far from my property that has a "fee fishing" business that had been in his family. He resurrected it and is now trying to make a go of it. He also does some pond stocking...he delivered a load of albino catfish to me awhile back...but I think he stays pretty busy primarily with the fee fishing ponds and school.

Brandon is a real nice young man going to college and also trying to run his family business. I bet he would discuss the fee fishing business with you since your place will be several hours away.

http://www.willnerfishfarms.com/fee-fishing.html

Can someone enlighten us poor northern boys what a 'fishout' is? I don't think I'm even aware of any pay to fish lakes around here?

FWIW when I was growing up in Indiana there was a pay pond in Greensburg you paid a daily fee (honor system drop $3 in the box on the post) and could keep what you caught. My understanding of a "fish out" fee is you pay a fee to fish and then an additional fee by the pound or number for what you keep.

Thanks for the welcome guys.

Zep, I will definitely be checking that out. Right now it, we're in the stages of deciding whether or not it's something that would work, but when we do make our final decisions and get into actual planning, I'll definitely hit him up. Thanks.

Bill, I definitely understand what you mean and the concerns anyone would have giving business advice. I think I'm more looking for opinions on what people like, their fishing preferences, what would be more popular, things like that. For instance when I asked about fee fishing vs. fish outs, I really just meant to see the opinions of others on what they themselves prefer if and when they do go fishing. I don't really expect actual business advice, as much I had expected people to tell me about their own personal preferences and what they do and don't like.

Like when I had asked what size ponds are best and the minimum size needed, the reason I ask is basically to see what people prefer. Our lakes here are large, we do not have small fee fishing places here in Cali, so I'm not sure what people like over there. I would not want to try to start a business with something small like 1-2 acres, if it's not something people would pay for or like to fish that's all, and the reason for those questions. We do not have personal lakes here where I live, we are filled with nothing but state parks and the like. 1-2 acre ponds aren't all that common here at all. That is why I was trying to get an idea of what people in more rural areas like. What they like to fish for, if those fish would be compatible, etc... All questions I asked are really just for opinion and what people themselves prefer. Kind of like a survey. lol.

I definitely would not want anyone to feel uncomfortable like they are giving business advise at all, but more just their opinion and preferences if they themselves were to visit a place like this what they would like to see.

Yes Bill is right. We have fish-outs here in Cali and you pay per pound of the fish you catch. It's very expensive at the one near me. You pay $20 per person to get in, then pay for every fish you catch. One can pay upwards of $20 for a 5-6 lber. You're not allowed to throw them back. You must put it in your bucket. Now, whether people do that or not, I can't really say lol. They do have patrol boats. But then again it's a state park...

I can offer this FWIW...for many years I lived in Singapore and the only "close" good fishing was at a pay pond. The fee was $50 for 4 hours and you keep what you catch. No nets allowed and only ultralight gear. People got outraged if they did not catch fish! They had small public fishing ponds they stocked twice a day from growout ponds they brought in from Malaysia.

According to the state, there are 17 licensed "fee fishing" facilities in MI. Use to be a whole lot more, but the gub ya know...

A little over 40 years ago while making a trip from Indiana to Florida, we stopped at a trout pay pond in the Appalachian Mountains. The deal there was they provided the pole and bait to the tourist and a pond full of trout. IIRC you only paid for what you caught and the fee included cleaning the fish and cooking it up in their restaurant with fries and a salad. Beverages and other sides were extra of course!

In southwest Ohio we have both. The pay lakes are primarily LMB, BG, and catfish which are quickly dying out. The fish outs here are mostly trout clubs, pay $2,000-$3,000 per year and you pay per pound with restrictions on how often you can fish. I believe there are 5 within a 50 mile radius of where I live, wish I had a boat load of money to blow on trout fishing. Every single one has a rather long waiting list. If I was going to do something like that, I would definitely look at a trout club as the demand is there, at least in my area.

I think pretty much anything "can" work, but it depends on your definition of "success". If people/families have a good time they will come back. I would probably frown on booze being allowed. It's probably just not worth it.

Are you doing this mainly for fun/enjoyment or do you need this operation to provide a certain steady year around household income? Like most business operations, it probably is no picnic and a lot of struggle and hard work...but could be rewarding if it is your passion

Not sure how old you are, but I think 7 days a week may eventually take away your passion and you should close at least one day a week or have someone that can run it on your day off. You need to recharge your batteries. It will be good for you and your business.

Be sure and have adequate insurance because you will most likely get sued eventually.

Of course location can play a huge part in how many customers will visit. But so many other factors can play an important role. How much fun customers/kids have, how you set-up the environment around the ponds. Docks? Park benches? Picnic pavilions? Walking paths? Snack/soda machines or food trailer munchies/hot dogs on weekends?

Shade trees or shade in general are pretty important in Texas so I would think about how people/kids can fish in the summer and not be in the direct sun for hours at a time.

Be sure and have a shaded fish weigh station/pavilion where kids/other customers can gather and look at all the caught fish and fish being cleaned. This area should display pics of big fish caught over the years and maybe a "lake record champions list". Have a backdrop sign with your company name and website situated where every picture taken at the weigh station shows your fish pond name, city, and web address in the background. Nothing like free advertising! Also sell t-shirts with your name/website/fish jumping image. Sell t-shirts almost break-even cheap...more for advertising than making money on shirts.

No real business advice here, but Texas just ended a multi years drought where most "small" ponds became big dirt holes. Water will be your primary concern first, topography second, then the multitude of permits. Texas has one or two I know of. Depending on water used, location and discharge, you may need a 404 permit from the EPA/Army Corp of Engineers, an EPA NPDES waste permit, Locating reliable sources for adult fish to restock with, especially 2 pound channel cats.

Wow!! Someone from Greensburg, that is where I live.

I just stocked a pond outside Greensburg a couple weeks ago.....also had a clown pull out in front of me near Osgood....Over $3600 in damage with under 5000 miles on my new pickup....I avoided the clown, but a mailbox was declared dead at the scene!

Sandra, welcome to Pond Boss. That close to the Gulf you will probably get adequate rain to keep a pond/s full.

My question might relate to the demand. You're awfully close to free fishing in the Gulf.

I think I might contact the Chamber of Commerce and ask a lot of questions about the demographics.

Welcome aboard Great idea--- do your home work!!!!

It is a tough business. We have a number of fee fishing places here in West Virginia. I know quite a few of the owners. Most are making a living.

Some friends have a camping and trout fishing place. They also raise trout for other fee fishing operations. They make a reasonable living from it, but it has taken a toll on their health. They are located in a mountain ski resort area about 50 miles from me, where there are a number of other getaways.

On that does quite well NOW is Smoke Hole Caverns and Resort. They've turned it into a destination location. Back in March, I had lunch with the husband of the husband/wife owner team. They've been through hell to get to where they are, including a case that took them to the Supreme Court over a poacher who owned their stocked fish. He told me that a couple of years ago they were so busy that they raised their prices significantly to cut down on all of their business! Instead, their business volume increased.

But, our area is quite different from Texas, so it probably isn't a reasonable comparison. We are a few hours from the Washington DC metro area and a few hours from the Pittsburgh area. It is a quiet mountain area where city folk can get away from people, traffic, etc.

Here's a place in So. Cal. that I am familiar with from years ago when I lived out there.

http://www.fishinglakes.com/

I think they work better when located near a larger city. City folks can come out and fish - country folks usually know enough people that have ponds, know the lakes in the area or have their own pond to fish in.

Yikes. I sleep for a night and come back to a lot of great replies. I really do appreciate that people are not afraid to post the negative, we do need those as well so we see what needs to be changed and focused on as well.



Someone asked above what my main purpose would be for this business, and my answer is the pure joy of it. I love to fish, I love being near the water. I wouldn't consider it work (even though I know there is a lot of physical work) with the way I envision it, being a pay pond. A trout club does sound more "lucrative" I guess you can say, but it seems we would be missing out on some of the things I would enjoy at a pay lake, like catering to more of a family environment, kids and whatnot. A trout farm is more gearing towards serious anglers, and I feel I would miss out on the family environment.



We will be doing this for enjoyment, but it would also replace one, or both incomes eventually. (Or should I say hopefully.) We do understand the hard work needed, both mental and physical. But like you said, can be rewarding because it is our passion. We are both outdoorsy people. We just do not enjoy what we currently do and have always wanted to start a business like this. Right now I work for the government, and he's a truck driver. Taking care of a business like this would be a dream for both of us.

We are both 33. And good point on the battery recharge. If we were to stay open all week, we would definitely look into hiring someone part-time, or maybe close twice a week. You're definitely right. And yes insurance is a definite, we would not start a business without it. I believe it is actually mandatory anyway if you have customers going on your property.

About location, definitely. That's a big reason why I'm reaching out for opinions. Things definitely are different where we will be moving in comparison to where we are. As for all the amenities and things to do, that is on the top of our list. Everything you mentioned is included. There will also be a basic bait and tackle shop, as well as a snack bar. Food, drinks, playground for the kiddos, the works.

As for shade, yes, we will not be buying property unless it's wooded. No exceptions. And this is for my own personal reasons as well. I need shade. lol.

Now that I think about it, wow, that's more than I ever get when I fish here... I've spent plenty of days baking in the sun, sitting on a rock getting skunked on the lakes lol.

Awesome idea with the logo on the stations. Never would have really thought of that. As for advertising, online advertising would be taken care of. My old online sporting goods store was actually built, advertised and ran by myself. I'm highly proficient in web design, coding, SEO and online marketing. I've personally designed business cards, shirts, logos, etc... So the advertising would be easy for us. We would also be aiming for the word of mouth advertising to eventually play a big part of the business as well.



Ouch. How small are we talking about here? Less than an acre? Or did even the ponds exceeding a couple of acres dry up? We've been looking for property and I do notice that some properties with ponds already on them do see a bit dry, but nothing terrible. But like someone else said, it's by the gulf, so they may not be experiencing the same issues as those further away. As for permits, don't remind me. We're not there yet and frankly I don't want to scare ourselves yet. We'll deal with those headaches later.



That's great to hear about the water. Start with good news, then get to the bad huh? lol. The demand is definitely a concern. As you can see from first post, that is one of my biggest concerns, and a big reason I had posted this. We are looking at places about 30-60 minutes away from the coast, plus on top of that, there are streams and such everywhere. That is why we have to work really hard to draw people in, and give them something more than the free places. My buddy who is the only person I know that lives in that area and I are going to have to talk more. He's a devoted angler as well. We will be seeing each other in July and going to the Colorado River. We'll have a week to talk and I can learn more about the area and demographics as well... while we're fishing. (As well as information from the CoC.)



Hey Mike. Definitely! A few months into our homework, and still have about a year to go. We don't plan to move forward with this until the end of 2016. But either way, there will be a pond built, business or not. So I'll be here... Looking for a dirt mover. Probably you! lol. Then I can come to Pond Boss actually asking pond questions. haha.



That's great to hear. The camping is definitely something we would want to add in the future. The hubby's concern is the liability, its' definitely something we would have to think long and hard about. I too would love to make it an overnight place. He basically just wants an all-out campsite. And here I am trying to take baby steps. lol. And yes, I bet it's exhausting. But to be honest, I think my job now is even more exhausting. Sigh.

Esshup, I live a few minutes from the Santa Ana River and what used to be Anaheim Lakes. That's one of the places I was talking about in the first post. It costs something like $8.50 per pound. Ya. No. Lol.

My current .00001 acre pond.

Better be careful with those goldfish in there, a lot of people get into trouble putting them in their ponds!!!!

Another thing to look at is the water that is under the ground. If you go into a dry spell, will you be able to punch a well and keep the ponds full? Yes, more $$ for electric to fill the ponds, but at least they will be full.

I lived in Oceanside, but went up to Norco/Temecula/Tehachapi to train my Springer Spaniels, and bounced all over Orange and San Diego Counties shooting clay birds.

According to filings, John opened ponds up in Muskegon for fee fishing last year. That's like shooting fish in a barrel!

John was listed as a fish fee lake, but I believe it was a different location than were he raises the trout.

Is this a new place besides that other one?