Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Corrective stocking YP as forage

Has any one stocked yp in the midwest as a forage fish for lm in an established pond?

I have been playing around with different ideas on diversifying my forage base and wondered about the potential of yp.

Anyone have ideas on benefits and possible problems?

The pond, in west central Missouri, has well established lm up to 20 inches, good population of various sized bg, some re, a few gsf and lots mosquito fish that I know of. Pond is 4 acres with lots of submerged brush, a large log pile and some (5% maybe) submerged vegetation. FA has been been an issue in the past, but shore line and underwater vegetation may have helped that last year as well as some spot hydrated lime applications.

My goal with this pond is primarily healthy bass. I am seeing my very small bass (under 8 inches) to be extremely fat with wr's over 100, but all the bass over that length vary the wr's between 80 to over 100. Most are in the high 80's to mid 90's. I am not overly disappointed with that, but do not want the wr's to drop as the pond continues to age. Besides, perch taste good too

My current management is to weigh all bass, cull most fish under 15" or anything skinny or unhealthy. Most fish with wr's under 90% get culled. I cull larger bg (over 8") if the are NOT actively spawning. All gsf or apparent hbg's are culled. I have caught plenty of bg between 9 and 10 inches this year.

I am wondering if adding yp would assist in keeping the bass healthy and growing as well as adding another species to fish for. I do understand they can be nest robbers, but since bg's are such great guarders, that shouldn't be too much of an issue (right???) and if some lm nests got robbed, well, that shouldn't hurt too much (right???). Fewer young ones coming up to compete for the forage.

Would adding yp likely do any or all of the following:
1. Establish a successful long term breeding population
2. Increase wr on the larger size bass
3. Substantially effect the bg population.

What am I missing or not thinking of? If this is feasible, how many, what size and when do we do the yellow perch stocking?

Thanks!!

CMM

Adding YP in your situation will not be a disadvantage. YP will definitely be consumed by the LMB. Maybe there will be too much consumption of YP. Hopefully some YP will survive predation long term since you do have the start of some good habitat of brush and submerged vegetation, although you may not have enough habitat for long term YP survival especially the offspring YP. Not a lot has been published on the amount of submerged habitat that is needed for YP to survive predation by LMB. The amount of habitat and LMB density of per acre and size structure will play a big rolls in YP survival. Dr Willis as SDSU did see survival of YP in LMbass waters, but I do not think the amount of vegetation in those ponds were ever quantified. More work needs to be done on this topic. There is published research of this for BG-LMB.

I suspect in the smaller pond situations (0.3-5ac) the LMB will learn to 'key in' on preying on the YP more than BG since YP-LMB both occupy a similar niche and YP are more fusiform compared to BG even though BG are will be more abundant than YP. I suspect the LMB will eat a larger percentage of YP than BG but remember this is based on the density of YP and BG. For example if we have a new year class of BG, bass are likely to consume 35% of the new BG. But if we have a new year class of BG and YP bass will eat 25%-30% of the new BG and 60%-65% of the new YP. Note - Having an extra forage fish (YP) in the pond may allow more bass YOY to survive and create a need to harvest more bass each year to maintain the same or a good predator - prey balance. As the submerged habitat increases expect the size structure of the fishery to change. Keeping good catch records each will show you if this is happening.

I suggest you thy this supplemental forage stocking and keep good catch records of the catch ratio of BG to YP and stomach contents of harvested bass. YP will not be nest robbers of other fish until the YP become over abundant and stunted. The sunfish will be much more likely to rob nests in your situation compared to the YP.

IMO to have good chances of YP survival of stocked perch initially they should be larger adults so they have a good chance of survival until the first spawn. Then survival of the first year class of YP will be dependent on habitat and bass density.

Bill, thanks!

I keep catch records now and would continue to do so. I can sure add stomach contents to the notes on all culled bass. I also will be tagging some lm in '15. First year for that.

So, spring stocking maybe, large gravid females included in the mix? I wonder if 100 adults would be enough? Or am I underestimating by a long shot?

Anyone know of reputable yp dealer in west central mo?

CMM

In 4 acres, 100 adult sized YP (25/ac) would be a good number to experiment with to see if they survive and can recruit some young perch. You may have a pretty hard time locating adult YP in MO or your region. Rainman may be able to deliver some larger YP to you on a return trip or while making his delivery rounds depending on his trips and schedule. It would be best if you could add the YP prior to spawning or late fall. Spawning of YP in MO is probably in February.

Too bad this this wasn't posted earlier. I just returned home Saturday from delivering some HSB from 6" up to 4# and several thousand YP from 3" up to a pound each. I had some orders for multiple year classes of each.

Most all of the female YP over 9" were already fat with eggs...


The dip net is 19 inches across....

Any nest robbing done by YP might actually be a good thing, helping to control an over population of LMB...

IN larger lakes the ones with good perch population also have large bluegills. Perhaps the perch keep the bluegills under control?

You may want to wait until next fall of 2015 to stock YP if you can't find them this spring. Later stocking will also allow your submerged weed habitat to enlarge a little more increasing chances of survival of YP fry-fingerlings.

CMM, how many of the large BG are you taking out per year?

esshup,

I am taking out 80-90 bluegill- all over 8inches- per year. Again, if they are on the beds, I am releasing to help recruitment.

Cecil Baird1,

I am in no way opposed to large bluegill (how could anyone hold anything against a fat bluegill!), but larger, fatter bass is a higher priority

Rainman,

I was hoping the yp would help thin the lm, I cull gobs of 4-8 inch bass- those buggers will hit any fly, even if it is 3X their size!
Those fish you delivered looked great. May be too late to stock for me in 2015, but hopefully, fall/winter of 2015 I can give you a call and check on your yp situation.

Bill Cody,

Thanks for all the feedback, thoughts and help. I had no idea where to start on a number for initial stocking on those yp!

CMM

Hey guys havent posted much but do a LOT of browsing and have gotten some great info so thank you! I have a couple questions about stocking YP as forage also.

Some pond info:
approx. 2 acres in NW Illinois.
Plenty of large BG and CC.
Large stunted LMB population.
Approx. 12 years since it was stocked.
17' max depth and good vegetation around the shore and some in the shallow areas off shore.
Fairly clear water.

Here is my plan/question(s)
I am planning on adding YP, new LMB (tagged and being stocked to add new genetics), and some musky to help with my lack of harvesting (its hard to just kill fish for no reason since i dont really eat fish to much haha. From what i understand above 7" YP are mostly females so i was planning on adding about 15lbs of 7"+ and then 200 in the 5-7" category along with some shiners and the other fish mentioned. Do you think this is enough to give them a decent chance at establishing? Going to try and harvest as many 13"- LMB as i can prior to this but im not sure how many i will be able to remove.I would like to get them established as quickly as i can so if i need to add more i am willing to. I was hoping the shiners would be a "decoy" and take some of the heat off the YP. Any suggestions will be very welcome! Thanks guys!

Welcome to posting, Zslow6!

What kind of cover do you have to offer your new yellow perch?

As far as natural cover the pond has about 5' of reeds/top water grass that extends from the shore along with underwater vegetation. I would say that about 35-45% of the pond has vegetation. Also we have been adding man made structures in the form of PVC trees (4 so far) and about 3 pallet pyramid cribs (not sure what else to call them). Going to add more in a few days before the ice melts and over the summer as well.

Your musky will also eat larger YP esp when the musky is less than 36"-40". It would be a really great study to see what percentage of YP vs LMB that the musky consumes over course of one year. IMO your emergent vegetation will be helpful for maintaining YP in the pond esp if you focus more on removing smaller LMB. Try an keep records for us and you as to the ratio of LMB vs YP that you catch angling. Also note the lure used which can bias the catch of LMB vs YP. These data will give you quantitative answers over time if your stocking plan is working.

FYI older male YP can also be larger sizes 9"-14". IMO shiners will serve as a 'decoy'. You can monitor the remaining relative shiner density by using baited fish traps.

I am sure there are some local people near you that would like to have the 8"-12" LMB to clean and eat. Maybe check around for this as an option. Even more people would like it if you cleaned the bass for them which any true conservation minded angler would do. Any relatives that like to eat fish? I like to use cleaned fish to repay favors that people do for me.

I am a little nervous since the hatchery says the muskie are between 9-14" so i think their survival will be iffy but i cant get anything larger until fall so i figured its worth the shot considering the price of everything else. I understand they can get over 7" but the hatchery says most of theirs over that are female (guessing they just grow quicker) but im sure some of the smaller ones will be both male and female. I guess my worry is if that will be a large enough quantity to give them a shot or if im seriously underestimating the LMB predation.

Do you guys think it would be beneficial to remove the CC? i have heard they start competing with the LMB after a certain size (i have caught them on texas rigs and crank baits so seems to make sense) or do you think they could help control the bass population? they dont seem to be aggressive enough to get larger bass but might be taking any of the other possible forage away (not sure if there are any crawfish in the pond or not).

I think and in my experience the larger CC will eat more YP than LMB because of the behavior of YP & LMB that puts the YP more in the predatory search of CC than small bass. Since you are buying just a few musky the fish place may select them toward the larger sizes of 12"-14" if you ask or offer to pay a premium for the larger ones. If your bass are not much bigger than 13" then the smaller stocker musky should survive okay if there are proper sized fish for them to be eating right after stocking. Plus you have some shoreline emergent weed cover for refuge of the stockers which will help survival. Prior to stocking make a concerted effort to fish out bass even if you have to use FHM or shiners as bait. Your bass will quickly repopulate.

Thanks for those suggestions. There are a few large (3-4lb) bass but mostly they are in the 10-16" range and a bit skinny. I will try to get the CC out as soon as possible as long as their absence wont hurt anything.

How big are the CC?

CMM I have a shipment of YP in NE in Spring - fish will be age 1 2014 class and probably 4-8" - larger fish will be females, smaller likely males. Let me know if I can help you out - have several clients ordering and I have a few ordered for myself. Maybe Rex can pay a visit and deliver to you unless he's got a line on fish sooner than he suggested. Happy to help my PB family if I can, let me know.

Cool experiments guys - I can't wait to see how thing go for you. The few YP that make it through the predators should be impressive. I want to see some 14" MO YP!

About 28" and probably 10lbs? I attached a pic of one my buddy caught.

If you are not feeding the fish pellets those CC are eating fish as a main diet over the course of the year. Consider how many and what size of fish a similar sized bass eats and the weight consumed is similar to that of the fish eaten by the CC. The CC gets his food primarily at night when many fish are 'resting', while the bass feeds a lot during the day. Both predators do some feeding during opposite periods. If you want a decent YP population get those bigger predators out. Angling with larger live baits often targets larger bass and CC. Think larger chubs from creeks and medium BG or 4"-5" LMB from the pond as baits.

Yea i have been thinking they are an issue. Definitely going to get them out. The guy who caught that uses home made stink baits so im going to let me take them. Had bad luck using BG...lost a good bass from a spine puncturing its throat. Might be a crazy question but can you trap CC? my limited knowledge of catfish it seems like it would be similar to trapping any bottom dweller?

My experience is trapping larger CC is not real successful, but my technique might not have been the best. Wise angling may be the best method for CC removal. Baiting the area prior to angling area IMO will be very helpful to consistently catching the CC. Expect to catch only one each time you fish due to them releasing fright/flight hormones when hooked. But numerous outings can remove significant numbers. Let us know about your catfishing adventures.

Jug fishing might be something to consider. Not exactly trapping, but similar principle. I've heard others have success.

Use a 20 oz coke bottle with about 42" of line attached to neck. Use strong hook and lite weight. Hook a 3"+- bluegill in top behind dorsal fin so it don't kill it, throw out around lake and just wait for the bottle to start moving around with a fish on it. Works good and doesn't scare the other fish.. Use strong line cause they not tired out when you finally get a hold of the bottle. Use a net
It fishes while you do whatever you want

Pat