Pond Boss Forums AERATION Systems questions Aeration system questions

Ok, finally getting around to posting a serious question (I hate it when that happens). So what follows is a long, rather tedious and serious post.

When my good friend Dave (aka DIED) came over to my place he mentioned that I should seriously consider getting an aeration system. So I've been reading Aeration threads galore and visiting Aeration web sites and guess what? I still know slightly more than squat about aeration systems.

In anticipation of questions here is some pond background information:

The pond is located in Northern California in the Sierra Nevada foothills at approximately 2,000 feet elevation. As near as I can tell the pond was created in the 1940's - I know old for a pond. What has probably been the savior of this pond is that is has a year round spring that feeds the pond. The pond varies in size from approximately 3 acres at the high water mark and drops down to about 2.5 acres at the low water mark (give or take). The pond is stocked with LMB, BG, RES, GSF and Gams. The pond has always had Elodea in it and some FA but nothing too extreme in past years. This year however the Elodea is growing more noticeably and I'm seeing much more FA than in the past. I've already been in contact with some weed control experts and they've recommend aquatic herbicides to chemically treat the Elodea and FA in small sections so as not to cause an O2 crash. I don't know how much of that is relevant but there it is.

Oh and one other minor challenge - - there is no power currently on the property. At this point my two options seem to be Windmill aeration or a solar system. The primary problem that I see with a Windmill at my place is that I don't know if there is enough wind to generate the required PSI to (1) property aerate the pond to a suitable depth and (2) in the worst summer months (July and August) the wind can be dead still and (3) It won't run at night (which from what I've read seems to be the optimal time to run aeration). So I am leaning toward a solar system. Based upon my research to date in order to build a solar system that would run an aerator 10 hours or so a day during the evening hours that would run a GAST 0523 (just picked this pump because it seemed like it would provide enough PSI to do what I need) is gonna cost about $2,500 to $2,800. I only used the GAST pump for solar spec calculation purposes - I'm not married (nor engaged nor even shacking up with) the GAST pump (even though the GAST pump appears to be well bred, is a rather attractive and has a slightly naughty attitude) - I just had to pick something to perform amp hour requirement calculations. I'm gonna run the solar system specs through a solar forum to see if I'm on the right track but based upon similar systems I've seen I think I'm fairly close. I have looked at some complete solar aeration systems but it seem as though a rather large premium is charged for the solar equipment but I would welcome any input from folks that sold complete (solar aeration) systems as well.

So here's a photo of the pond with some notations:


A few notes related to the photo: (1) the Red X is the approximate location of the spring and (2) the depth contour lines are an approximation - not some official survey or anything. (3) A seasonal creek (runs approx Nov through April) enters the pond on the right side of the photo into the shallow end of the pond.

So after that long winded set up what do you think?

Would a Windmill set up be sufficient?

Would a traditional aeration system powered via solar be worth the extra cost?

Would one pump with two to three diffusers be sufficient for this size pond (2.5 to 3 acres)?

Can I get system suggestions and quotes (can quote me via email if you prefer).

Do you need any other info?

Is there life on Mars?

Wow, a fairly serious (at least for me) long winded post - That hurt a lot more than I though it would, I need to take some aspirin and lay down now.

Solar systems have come down in price and got better. Will be interested to hear and watch you make the system. Then hear how it does.

I'd like information on this, also. I have no electricity but want to eventually make much of the property solar powered.
I have plenty of wind, 80% of the time, but it's 5 acres and I see it needing too many windmills. It might end up looking like a Wind Farm!

I was into solar, here is some basic systems. You prob need something like the fifth one. Or even the second one with a DC air pump. Size it correctly, or at least be able to expand if its not enough.

I was gonna make a 2 panel system around 4 years ago, never did.

JHAP, I really like having a windmill (especially wrt utility bills and aesthetics), but I am working infrastructure improvements and plan on adding electric aeration in the future. You have mentioned most of the drawbacks to windmills already.

One thing I have learned about solar here is that inverters (to run AC loads off DC batteries) are very inefficient. So if you use an AC aeration system, you would have to upsize the solar cells and batteries notably, with associated costs.

On more thought, If I ended up using a DC solar system in your shoes, I would add a small inverter for occasional use of AC stuff (saws, drills, etc.) while I was at the pond.

No life on Mars to speak off; both Marsopolis and Marsport basically roll up the sidewalks after dark.

What an ignoramus I am! I was so far off on my solar calculations it's not even remotely funny (and remember I'm the guy that thinks almost everything is funny). No wonder none of the aeration pros chimed in on this - they probably thought that I was gonna present a remarkable new break through in solar technology. But alas no... just a over-worked, over-stressed, over-fed, over-optimistic, over-zealous monkey performing solar calculations.

So in the pursuit of truth ("you want the truth.... you can't handle the truth") and full disclosure here's the correct answer. Basically a Gast 0523 draws WAY WAY too much power (115 volts at 4.0 amps or 460 watts) to be used in a solar system it would drive the cost beyond belief. So I recalculated using a GAST 3032 it draws 115 volts at 2.2 amps or 253 amps - better but still not great. It provides 2.2 cfm at 10 PSI (which hopefully is enough). Just for the record I found air pumps that were much more energy efficient (linear air pumps) but they poop out at any significant depth. If you have a shallower pond though a linear pump potential option.

Basically to provide the required power factoring in inverter inefficiency, battery inefficiency, amp hour storage for up to 3 cloudy days, 6 peak hours of sun recharging the system .. the cost to run a GAST 3032 for just 6 hours per day 7 days a week would be.......

wait for it...

here it comes...

$5,000.

DOAH!

So potential problems... is 6 hours a day enough? I don't know.

Is anything better than nothing? I don't know.

Is 2.2cfm at 10psi enough power to pump down to 17 feet (max depth) to power a decent diffuser? I don't know.

Oh well they say it takes a big man to admit to his mistakes but I don't feel any bigger unless of course you're measuring girth.

jeff, FWIW, yer pond is amazing being at least 60 years old with no management and being in the nice condition that it is. i believe the granite substrate with the influx of that beautiful sierran spring water has been the fountain of youth for you. that said, however, ponds age. with no management, ponds eventually die. i've watched the downstream 5 ac ranch pond systematically increase in weed growth each year (FA, elodea, pondweed) to the point there is barely any open water in late summer. within a couple years i wouldnt be surprised to see a eutrophic disaster down there. it happened in my pond before renovation, killed all life and became a septic mess....this is not likely in yer case due to the spring but this is why i mentioned you should consider aeration....to help slow down the natural pond aging process.

as you know, if you chemically treat your increasing aquatic weed growth it will rapidly create a bunch of dead organic matter that will also rapidly consume the O2 needed to degrade (this is as opposed to the normal slow seasonal natural die-off).

a couple things you might research/consider are solar circulator/fountain type set-ups to keep the surfacewater broken up, and/or for bottom diffused air, size a system for the central part of pond, not necessarily in the deepest part. it will create convection cells that will affect the largest area and you might not need as strong a pump.

somewhere a couple years ago i came across solar circulators that werent that expensive....i.e. you could get a couple of them, i'll see if i can find that stuff, or maybe someone here has experience with those and will chime in.

my couple of cents.

jeff , i have the superior 20 foot windmill with 2 diffusers

runs at about 5-9 lbs of psi.

you would be surprised how little wind it takes to spin the thing

cost about $1975.00
takes all day to put up

i would think 2 diffusers locate in mid depth of the pond would do well to keep the growth down

I absolutely appreciate your advise and concur with you. Without the spring my pond will probably have become a disaster area years ago. What scares me is the rapid growth in various pond vegetation (FA, Elodea and pond weed) compared to the same time frame last year.

This is precisely why I haven't chemically treated the Elodea and FA. I'm terrified of causing a hugh oxygen crash the resultant fish kill. So I researched other alternatives - Sterile Grass Carp, Tilapia = not allowed in Northern California. Manual removal = works over the short haul but is incredibly slow, and not very practical for 3 acres of pond. I did a lot of manual removal last year and it seems my weed problem is much worse this year.

I'd love to find a more cost reasonable solution. I called Solarbee because the had a reconditioned unit for sale on their web site that was sized properly for my pond. The great sales price for the reconditioned unit was $15,000. YIKES!

The $5,000 price tag above was only for the solar set up. Add $400 for the pump and who knows how much for air line and diffusers, a pump housing, etc, etc and I'll bet I'd be looking at a $6,000 price tag.

So a windmill or two is sounding better and better.

Question Dave - if you recall the pond layout the west end is surrounded by trees and will stay that way, the east end, across from where we were fly fishing, (or more precisely where you were fly fishing and I was looking like a kook performing a hula dance while waving a stick with string and a fake bug tied to it) anyhoo the north east end of the pond is relatively unobstructed and thats where the pond gets the most wind. So I was thinking of placing a windmill or two on the bank there. How can I measure if I get enough wind at that spot to power a windmill or two. In the afternoon it gets enough wind to push the wife and I around in the kayak. Is there a wind-o-meter that will measure and record wind speed and will run on a battery?

Thanks for the feedback Chris. I think that a windmill is gonna be the way to go. And like Theo said I like the looks of them.

The solar research was a fun diversion for me but I came to the same conclusion that every other solar aeration thread on the forum came to. Solar aeration is just plain too expensive.

i agree 110 percent
talked to the guys at solarbee too, before i went with windmill

easy contact at superior is doug at 1888 440-4466

they are located in canada

That SOUNDS like it should be enough to spin the windmill. IIRC a Koenders' takes 5 mph; I assume the Superior would have a similar low end.

Perhaps the better question to ask is "How much of the time does the wind blow, especially in the hot months?" That would be when you would need the most de-stratification.

Hi Jeffhasapond and al.

A lot of people call for solar aeration, when the see the price and efficiency, they often look for another alternative.

Solar direct is about the only way to go. We have chosen and limited ourselves to three models and they are roughly 2500$, 3500$ and 4500$. Forget a battery bank for aeration as it shoots the price through the roof. Solar direct means that when the suns hits the panels, the pump starts aerating the pond. If warming water is not an issue, like for a trout pond, then it may be enough aeration as the movement and circulation allows for a buffer of oxygen to be present overnight. Add another 1500$ and you get a tracker that will make your solar panels follow the sun at the right angle resulting in about 45% more energy. Going solar is more of a statement and environmental commitment than a business decision...

We once calculated how much it would cost to run 24/7 a Vertex Air1 with solar, and came up with a 38,000$ cost...

Our largest solar direct will aerate as much as a single diaphragm 20' Koenders windmill which cost about 1500$.
A dual diaphragm is ideal as for the same amount of work + a few hundred dollars more you get twice the aeration. Windmill can be located 1000' away from pond if plumbing is adapted.

Consider height as important for a windmill. Each foot increase can mean 5% more wind.
Right now Koenders sells a 25 foot unipole dual diaphragm windmill for a very good price.

I have set a few up and they look good, have a three year warranty.

When I get back to the office, I'll try to post you some pics I took last week, at one of my clients who bought 5 of them for complex of 3 ponds.

Therein lies the problem. Since I don't live at the pond (and my buddy Dave has better things to do all day than to stand at my pond's edge with a pin wheel and record measurements) I don't know how much time the wind blows. Based upon my observations during my one week per month stay at the property in 2006, during the hottest months last year (June through August) the wind for the most part only seemed to blow 3-4 hours per day. My fear is that the just is not enough wind to yield any consistent aeration. But that is only from limited observation.

Mario, I would be very interested if you could give me a quote for both a solar and a windmill solution. The specs and photo of the pond are at the top of this post if you need any additional information please do not hesitate to ask.

If you prefer to email me with info that would be fine also.

Jeff, I emailed you two quotes on your hiddenlakeranch.us address.