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I am new here. This site seems the best place to get help.

The lake is located in Greene Co, IN, near Bloomfield, which is about 80 miles southwest of Indianapolis. I built the lake in 1998. It is about 30 acres. It was built in a flat valley so the average depth is about 5-6 feet. There is about 4-5 acres only 1-3 feet deep. Near the dam it is about 10 feet. I stocked it with the usual large mouth bass, crappie, blue gill, red ear, channel catfish and pounds of minnows.

It worked wonderfully. For years it was incredible fishing. Catching several large bass was normal. We ate some of the fish. Then about 3-4 years ago, we got coontail in the lake.
It took over except in the deep part. We put amurs in and they cleared it nicely. However, now we are catching bass but seldom any large ones. (The record bass was 9 lb 2 oz caught about 6 years ago.) Periodically we will catch a 4-6 lb. now. I also now realize that the decline was over a period of time, not suddenly. Over the years, there has never been caught a really large blue gill. The largest crappie was 2 lbs, last year. The cat fish are about 7 lbs, tho we seldom catch one since we do not fish for them. Several hang around the dock where I feed them every few days. They get the filet fish left overs.

Can a lake that age and size be restored to its "youth" when it produced so many large bass? I had not fished before I built this lake. I realize now that I have been spoiled!!!
When it was at its best, I once caught 2 four pound LMB on a single cast with my chug bug lure. Really, the preacher and my son were with me! smile

Thank you. Tooger Smith


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Welcome to PondBoss. What sizes and quantities of bass are you catching regularly now? Are there lots of smaller bass? And the bluegills...what are you catching, size wise?

30 acres is a large BOW. It may be time to call in a pro and shock the lake to see what you have, or don't have.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Your lake is showing its age and lack of proper management for consistently producing large bass. Bass can easily overpopulate a lake this size unless lots of small bass are removed and the forage fish monitored for proper balance. Many new water bodies go through the same scenario. It is all about predator - prey balance.

The common larger bass were cropping the mid-size bluegill dramatically limiting the number that could become big BG. As the bass population changes from larger individuals of original stockers (now dying off - natural mortality) to numerous offspring later generation smaller bass the BG population will gradually become larger and larger individuals due to more mid-size BG surviving to continue growing toward large sizes. Managing a 30 ac lake in reality requires quite a bit of work and knowledge of fishery balance / management if a relatively steady state or special balance is desired. Many factors influence the fishery which is always changing. The trick is to monitor the constantly changing predator-prey balance and make needed adjustments as time passes.

Once a water body as big as 30 acres gets out of balance, it often takes a significant amount of effort, knowledge, and often money to shift it back to the original goals; in this case larger bass.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/03/14 08:29 PM.

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Just to add to what Bill and Sprkplug said, yes, you can turn the lake around, but I don't know if you can do it via angling only.

Via angling, what I'd do is this:

Get a log book, a good digital scale and a ruler/tape measure. EVERY fish you catch, record it's length, weight and species. There are relative weight charts that show whether a fish is underweight or overweight (overweight is a good thing).

If the bass are running out of food (bass food has to be plentiful AND the correct size) the best way to turn things around is by removing mouths i.e. removing bass. Depending on how stunted the LMB are, that could be 30 pounds per surface acre, which is a LOT of fish via angling.

The quickest way to get it turned around is to have a boat electroshock the lake when water temps are in the upper 60's and the majority of fish are shallower. If during the beginning of the survey, the LMB are stunted, have them change from just observing weights and lengths to keeping the underweight LMB out of the lake.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, but that's enough to give you and idea of what needs to happen.


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T.Smith - Do you have any idea how many man hours per year are spent fishing in this 30 ac lake?? To make the necessary changes by angling it will take a lot of hours of angling to remove enough fish to see results very quickly within two or even 3 years. In the meantime the bass are spawning each year to compensate for bass removed. Managing a 30 acre fishery takes a concerted effort. Without enough annual effort or adjustments (artificial or natural) the lake inhabitants will follow the natural path represented by the trend of the current fishery. IMO it will take some professional help to maintain the goal of large bass. One of several options to be seriously considered is to add a predator to randomly remove smaller bass.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/03/14 08:43 PM.

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Can you drain the lake? did you have that feature installed when you built it? and how does the lake fill??


Water is the basis of all life, by design!
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The last few weeks I have been weighing and measuring the bass. We caught about 20 Friday weighing from 1/5 to 2/10. I have a chart to compare and all but one were on schedule or above. We caught 3 BG, all about 4 inches or so. My son iced fished for BG last winter and caught several but none were very big. Fishing is about over for us this year, but I will keep track better next year. Thanks for your thoughts.


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I have come to understand I need to remove more LMB. Part of my excuse is that 30 years ago I had a 5 ac lake to which I gave some people permission to fish anytime they wanted to do so. However, soon they brought a friend who then thought he had permission to fish anytime, he brought a friend, etc. One morning, wife and I awoke to three strangers fishing near our bedroom patio door. So this lake is an invitation only lake.
Perhaps a good way would be to have a tourney for dads and kids for two or three times next spring and summer. That would be fun to watch.

I will check the water chemistry too. (I am a retired chemistry teacher. I can handle that!!)

As an old science teacher, could I make my own shocker? For those of us who like to tinker....

I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I had no idea when I built this lake it would take so much work. But there is fun too. I never fish alone, I always have two or three old geezers along!!


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I could siphon the lake down, but to empty it would leave a stinking mess. We live "on" the lake and we use the lake water for all our house hold water including drinking water. If there were a way to use the fish, then perhaps I could lower it three or four feet if that would do any good.

The lake fills from about 300 acres above it. It is all pasture and woods, no grain farming. So we do get "fresh" and clean water periodically. There are more deer in the woods than cattle in the pasture. The over flow has been as much as thirty feet wide and 2.5 feet deep. But normally, the 15 inch overflow pipe handles it.

I see where talipia are used as food. But I don't want to have to do that each year.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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Lowering a few feet would concentrate fish, making shocking and angling far more effective.



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Tournament ideas - Boy Scouts (I wonder if a merit badge is available in fisheries?) etc.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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Once you learn about the current population dynamics of the LMB and forage species then you can set goals of what needs to be done and what options can be used to accomplish those goals. First goal is to establish a baseline of the current fishery in terms of species present, size distribution of each species and approximate density of each specie. 30 acres is a lot of water to manage for a specific type of fishery. Think of it as a 30acre garden. Lots to do to keep it the way you want it productive. There are several to numerous members here with water size similar to yours. We can provide some good advice for management options or refer you to additional help options.


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To Bill, esshup and all of you, thank you. This will be both fun and challenging. Boy Scout Tourney sounds good. I thought of church groups also.

With winter coming, is there anything I can do now besides check the water chemistry? It would seem it is too late to establish the baseline of what and how much fish are present.

Chief ("girlfriend" of 48 years) and I go to SW Louisiana for the winter. (Jennings) This is not a normal snowbird destination, but I grew up there. Married a yankee, so been freezing every winter for 40 years. But she is a good one! My son stays and lives nearby, so he could do some "stuff" if anything can/should be done this winter for the lake.

Sharing is a good thing. I can see why some of you have been here several years. Too bad I did not know about you several years ago also. Perhaps one day I will be intelligent enough to contribute instead of just "taking".


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Not much to do with the lake once it gets to November to April. When do you return to IN? This winter you can access the forum and prepare a management plan for the future. Maybe even your goal will change by next April once you learn more about fish management and what is possible. I and other members will have ideas for you to consider this winter. I doubt that your water chemistry has changed very much since the lake filled. I suspect the water is relatively hard with good alkalinity (80-100mg/L) which makes the lake naturally productive - pretty typical for most IN impounded waters. You will want to build or buy a secchi disk and start monitoring the water transparency which often reflects the general productivity. Productivity governs the carrying capacity and amount of fish that usually comprises standing stock. With this info and your goals the amount of fish annually harvested can be estimated.
Disk reading times 3 or 3.5 = euphotic zone Hanson 1962., Round 1981.
Definition, Use, Homemade
http://www.secchidipin.org/whatis_secchi_disk.htm
purchase
http://www.secchidipin.org/secprice.htm
How to Use
http://rmbel.info/how-to-use-a-secchi-disk/
Homemade Instructions
http://www.secchidipin.org/makedisk.htm

In the meantime, have you read through this lengthy thread from our Archives section about managing LMB? There is a lot of great diverse info there to read, study, contemplate, and ask questions about while you are in LA.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255372#Post255372

I suspect you might refine your goals for the fishery once you learn more about predation, prey, balance and the possible options for a 30 acre lake.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/04/14 11:40 AM.

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Winter.........

Ice fish. Continue to record species caught, weight and length.

Verify depth of BOW if not 100% sure. Systematically drill holes and map the BOW for depth.

Do more reading here on how the different fish species interact with each other, what is and is not possible to do in Northern ponds (vs. Southern ponds).

Go to the Pond Boss store and order Raising Trophy Bass.
http://www.pondboss.com/item.asp?id=10&r=store%2Easp%3Fc%3D8

If you want to read and add a college level textbook or two to your library, look into:
Introduction to Wildlife and Fisheries an Intefrated Approach by David Willis, Charles Scarlet and Lester Flake

and

Small Impoundement Management in North America by J. Wesley Neal and David Willis.

Also, if you are going to have some time in Feb, you might want to look into this:

Pond Boss Conference


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We plan to get back the last of April. Came back too early last year. Bad to go from 80 to 30 in day!!! smile

I will do the reading. Two years ago, I read 30 books and gained 10 lbs.... that is what Cajun food (esp crawfish) can do for you. Last year she made me work more remodeling a house.

I will make/buy a secchi disk and use it.

I will get my son to ice fish if the winter allows.

Thanks.


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I live 25 minutes from Bloomfield. Ice fishing is usually iffy this far south, last year being an exception.

Is your son comfortable, and experienced on hardwater?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I helped remove 1250 pounds of skinny and stunted LMB on a 17 acre lake this past spring and summer near the Bloomington/Normal area. Twelve people on 5 weekends plus when there was time to wet lines in smaller groups made a huge dent! The lake had been unmanaged for about 15 years.



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sprkplug... my son is 42 so he ought to know....but then he is just a kid still. smile
We may have to get together next summer being you are that close.

rainman...this is probably why the lake got the way it is, because we did not fish it more than 18 man hours per week over the years. I am learning. Does one have to stock tilapia each year? I will take you up on that after we remove a lot of fish next spring and summer.

Take care.


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Tilapia depend on your goals. One southern Indiana customer is wanting ONLY algae control without the added predator growth. He stocks every other year. For muck removal, one or two very heavy stockings work well. They do die late each fall, but that is how they work the magic as a management tool.



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Tooger, I see no reason why you couldn't make your own shock boat. I looked into it once but found, for the price, I could have my pond shocked for the next 20 years.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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Making a shock boat is complicated mechanical and electrical to do it right without creating electrical hazards. For casual use it would be cheaper to hire shocking done rather than invest in building a standard fish shocking system. If you can create enough man hours to fish, sample, monitor, and knowledgeably manage the fishery your lake shocking would not be necessary more than once every 3 to 6 years. And after that only when the fishery appears unbalanced and in need of accessory adjustment due to lack of proper harvest which is where you are "at" now. Proper management is the key component to consistent long term success.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/05/14 07:35 PM.

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Making a full boat shocker may not be practical. It would not be the first time I make something that did not work. Most recent were some turtle traps that I finally called turtleless traps. I did not catch one turtle this summer. I will have plenty to do this winter!!

A friend who just retired from the DNR, suggested that I might want to get someone to catch some nice female bass (males too?) from another pond/lake to give some new genetics in the lake. Anyone with ideas or experience? Can/do fish inbreed to puny like cattle do?

My science was chemistry...we only deal with "dead" stuff!

Thanks.


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Catching nice female bass from another lake does not give you any insight to their genetic history. All you know is it is a nice fish, but you don't know if the fish is 4 yrs old and fast / good grower or 9yrs old and a slow grower. For background, a 2 yr old very well fed fat bass in an excellent forage habitat with good genetics can weigh 5+ lbs. Some on this forum have documented it (Greg Grimes for one; see post below next).

It is pretty evident that your problem is too may 'hogs' feeding at the trough - over predation due to too many predators eating too much forage for the production capacity of your pond. It is a common problem. Initial growth of the bass was really good due to the correct number of bass relative to the amount of forage available. Also brand new ponds tend to be slightly more productive fish wise compared to a middle age or old age pond. This is often due I think to primarily a proper balance of predator and prey which often gets "out of wack" as the pond ages without proper mangement. Plus the productivity in an older pond often tends to shift to more a higher plant community compared to a plankton based community. Plankton based communities tend to be most productive 'fish wise'. First stocked fish in new ponds always seem to grow best compared to later generations and I think this is primarily due to changes in balance, community structure, and fish density.

In addition the advice from your DNR guy for adding new genetics is IMO primarily for ponds/lakes that have old fish that have interbred for many years (30-50). Your lake is too new to have bass genetics problems which was proven by the early growth traits of the first bass stocking which turned out very good and was not that long ago. The DNR guy should have realized this if he had a good fishery - genetics - zoology and population ecology background. IMO be careful of what you believe from so called "experts". Always get a second opinion which is what this forum is very good for - good second opinions and diverse ideas. Then you be the judge for what best fits your situation.

PS You may have made some things that were not practical in the past, but building an improper shock boat without proper instruction of how to operate it can easily be deadly. Your wife or your son's wife could easily be a widow due to a bad electro fish shock boat.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/06/14 08:54 PM. Reason: add ons and edits

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Below is a little more detailed information from a thread about expected and actual LMB growth that was located in the Archives for LMB Management. One can grow bass from fingerling to even 5 lbs in one year in a south central or southern pond due to a longer growing season. However growth can be exceptional for your region providing quality bass from good brood stock are stocked into a proper forage 'rich' pond. Unlimited food does wonders for fish growth.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=367415#Post367415

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/06/14 08:51 PM.

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