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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #432643 12/25/15 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Seeing as a month ago they just shipped me a new one to replace the defective one and it was a double diaphragm, it better be the 4.5'er!! I will email my contact there and see.


EDIT: Where did you see 4.5 CFM? I'm not seeing it?

EDIT EDIT: Just got word back from Koenders and they said only their electric units will produce that much CFM.


I thought I saw it on their parts website, and I thought it applied to the windmill aerators. Oops....................


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #432657 12/25/15 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Picture was taken yesterday. They made it up on snow machines. Big storm in there all week. Dropped 8" of snow at 6,500' so no telling how much at 10k'. Honestly, I am a little discouraged that there isn't a hole open in the ice. Pretty sure I can see a thin spot, but I sure would like to see 2 holes open! For perspective, the floor of the deck in the far left of the pic is about 4'.



How deep does the snow accumulate up there? If yer talking several feet, does the windmill get less effective as the snow buildup brings the vanes closer to the "ground?"


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
Bill D. #432829 12/28/15 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bill D.

How deep does the snow accumulate up there? If yer talking several feet, does the windmill get less effective as the snow buildup brings the vanes closer to the "ground?"


I really don't know at this point. Up by the cabin in the pic the snow looks to be 4'+, but down by the windmill it only looks about 18" or so. I am assuming that is because of how the wind rips across that lake. Sooo, I hope it doesn't get to the point of the blades only being a few feet from the ground.

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/28/15 08:47 AM.

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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #432865 12/28/15 01:57 PM
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If it was calm during the snow, there could have been enough ice form over the diffuser area to allow the snow to accumulate.

Once the wind starts blowing the diffuser should poke a hole through everything. (I would think)


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #432873 12/28/15 02:34 PM
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We will see. My remote camera, that is aimed at the lake, has quit working until it gets a firmware update. Got everything out there to get it updated once they take the sleds back up to the cabin. Once that is done, I will get daily pics of the lake and we will see what's up.

Last edited by wbuffetjr; 12/28/15 02:35 PM.

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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #432908 12/28/15 08:59 PM
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THAT will be nice!!

Now I can see the lens getting packed with snow and you will have to install a remote robot to clean the lens when required. laugh


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #432912 12/28/15 09:07 PM
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I suspect JKB can come up with a solar powered lens defroster if you just ask. He loves those kind of challenges! smile


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
Bill D. #433154 12/31/15 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I suspect JKB can come up with a solar powered lens defroster if you just ask. He loves those kind of challenges! smile


Haha! I have no doubt he could figure it out and get it done!


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #433912 01/07/16 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I suspect JKB can come up with a solar powered lens defroster if you just ask. He loves those kind of challenges! smile


Haha! I have no doubt he could figure it out and get it done!


Oh, NO!, you mount the camera in a box someplace with adequate protection from the elements.

I've read the ABB Solar Drive manual quite carefully today, and basically, it's configuration (set parameters) and forget. It can manage a remote solar rig by itself. All needed are solar panels, wire and hardware to hook things up and good to go.

However, a determination needs to be made if running with the sun will be good enough. Meaning, sun influence runs compressor, no sun, compressor is taking a break.

I sent an email to this company for more info on their rigs. http://www.solarmotorsystems.com/

Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
JKB #433955 01/08/16 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Originally Posted By: Bill D.
I suspect JKB can come up with a solar powered lens defroster if you just ask. He loves those kind of challenges! smile


Haha! I have no doubt he could figure it out and get it done!


Oh, NO!, you mount the camera in a box someplace with adequate protection from the elements.

I've read the ABB Solar Drive manual quite carefully today, and basically, it's configuration (set parameters) and forget. It can manage a remote solar rig by itself. All needed are solar panels, wire and hardware to hook things up and good to go.

However, a determination needs to be made if running with the sun will be good enough. Meaning, sun influence runs compressor, no sun, compressor is taking a break.

I sent an email to this company for more info on their rigs. http://www.solarmotorsystems.com/


Haha the camera is in a bear box 8' up in a tree. If the snow covers it then...... damnnnn!

That is all great news JKB!

Surely for what I am trying to do up there running only with the sun would be enough. Maybe Esshup came chime in on this one?


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #433957 01/08/16 02:04 PM
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I don't know if only the sun would be enough. i.e. enough run time to keep it open enough. I guess that would all depend on the CFM at the diffuser and how many diffusers there were.


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #433972 01/08/16 05:18 PM
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Well I am thinking at that point I would have the solar rig AND the windmill. On cloudy days when the solar production is poor the wind should be better and surely there would be some windy nights as well.

Let's just assume we are talking about solar tho? How hard would it be to add batteries to this system JKB? Is that just a cost factor? Could I just start with a couple batteries and then add more battery capacity as funds allowed?


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #433981 01/08/16 06:53 PM
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jr- I think we should talk. I will be switching over to a 220V system this year. I might know where you can get a solar system for cheap! wink. Also selling two windmills at discounted prices. I will be posting the entire BOM this winter for the solar design I have been running.

Windmill with this setup would almost certainly keep water open all winter long at my place here in central MN. We don't have the snow you do but we probably have comparable cold temps.

Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #433993 01/08/16 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Well I am thinking at that point I would have the solar rig AND the windmill. On cloudy days when the solar production is poor the wind should be better and surely there would be some windy nights as well.

Let's just assume we are talking about solar tho? How hard would it be to add batteries to this system JKB? Is that just a cost factor? Could I just start with a couple batteries and then add more battery capacity as funds allowed?


DC voltage will be rather high, which would require a lot of batteries to spin the motor.

In this scenario you are taking a VFD that typically runs from AC power, which internally converts it to DC to kinda chop it up and reorganize it to spit it back out as AC to the motor.

Like on the ABB Solar Drive, and many other VFD's like my Allen Bradley PowerFlex drives, you can directly apply DC Voltage to the DC Bus to run the motor and skip the AC altogether. ABB Solar Drive has all solar stuff in the run Macro like MPPT and a bunch of other stuff, so it would be an easier choice.

However, DC voltages required are about 35%-40% higher than the name plate rating of the AC motor. An ABB engineer told me that with a 230VAC 3 phase motor, optimum solar design voltage should be no less than 312VDC, but not more than 400VDC. Somewhere in between that would be good. With (4) 96VDC, 300 watt panels, you should be easily able to run a 1hp 3 phase motor, which could get you into a decent rotary vane compressor.

I know this has to be quite confusing, and it is. Definitely not plug and play.

I'll probably get one to mess with tho. Little solar rig I want to put out back would just be to run a small irrigation pump for the garden and such.

Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
mnfish #433997 01/08/16 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: mnfish
jr- I think we should talk. I will be switching over to a 220V system this year. I might know where you can get a solar system for cheap! wink. Also selling two windmills at discounted prices. I will be posting the entire BOM this winter for the solar design I have been running.

Windmill with this setup would almost certainly keep water open all winter long at my place here in central MN. We don't have the snow you do but we probably have comparable cold temps.


Problem is, your DC rig will smoke in short order at these elevations.

Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
mnfish #434000 01/08/16 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: mnfish
jr- I think we should talk. I will be switching over to a 220V system this year. I might know where you can get a solar system for cheap! wink. Also selling two windmills at discounted prices. I will be posting the entire BOM this winter for the solar design I have been running.

Windmill with this setup would almost certainly keep water open all winter long at my place here in central MN. We don't have the snow you do but we probably have comparable cold temps.


MnFish! Man it's good to hear from you again!

I am all ears on those windmills man! I was already thinking about maybe a second one for backup (my brand new one already had a failure and had to be repaired) AND I have been working on nailing down the 40 acres that joins ours. Has another 3 acre pond on it that will need a windmill! smile


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
JKB #434002 01/08/16 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Well I am thinking at that point I would have the solar rig AND the windmill. On cloudy days when the solar production is poor the wind should be better and surely there would be some windy nights as well.

Let's just assume we are talking about solar tho? How hard would it be to add batteries to this system JKB? Is that just a cost factor? Could I just start with a couple batteries and then add more battery capacity as funds allowed?


DC voltage will be rather high, which would require a lot of batteries to spin the motor.

In this scenario you are taking a VFD that typically runs from AC power, which internally converts it to DC to kinda chop it up and reorganize it to spit it back out as AC to the motor.

Like on the ABB Solar Drive, and many other VFD's like my Allen Bradley PowerFlex drives, you can directly apply DC Voltage to the DC Bus to run the motor and skip the AC altogether. ABB Solar Drive has all solar stuff in the run Macro like MPPT and a bunch of other stuff, so it would be an easier choice.

However, DC voltages required are about 35%-40% higher than the name plate rating of the AC motor. An ABB engineer told me that with a 230VAC 3 phase motor, optimum solar design voltage should be no less than 312VDC, but not more than 400VDC. Somewhere in between that would be good. With (4) 96VDC, 300 watt panels, you should be easily able to run a 1hp 3 phase motor, which could get you into a decent rotary vane compressor.

I know this has to be quite confusing, and it is. Definitely not plug and play.

I'll probably get one to mess with tho. Little solar rig I want to put out back would just be to run a small irrigation pump for the garden and such.


Well, assuming I am reading this right, then that is our answer right there. We go with the "run when there's sun" version and that's it. If running half the day all summer and as much of the winter as we can can't keep fish alive up there then I'll just grow the biggest crayfish anyone has ever seen lol.


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #434006 01/08/16 09:38 PM
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The answer is what would be required, which needs some work.

Just an AC option that we could probably put the screws to with decent bubbles to open an area during activation when solar is available.

You have to remember that this all has to operate and survive at your elevation. Not an easy task!!!

Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
JKB #434065 01/09/16 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: JKB
The answer is what would be required, which needs some work.

Just an AC option that we could probably put the screws to with decent bubbles to open an area during activation when solar is available.

You have to remember that this all has to operate and survive at your elevation. Not an easy task!!!


10-4

Being at that altitude is great 95% of the time, but it definitely has it's draw backs.


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #434074 01/09/16 02:50 PM
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I don't think altitude will kill us that bad. Derating isn't that much for cooling and the electronics (insulation) are good to 3000 meters without issue.

Like I mentioned before, you may need to pressurize some of this stuff.

Last edited by JKB; 01/12/16 06:06 PM.
Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #434464 01/14/16 05:58 PM
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ABB Solar Drive (ACS355 Machinery Drive with the MPPT Solar Algorithm), for a 1HP drive is $342.30. It will work at 10,000 ft without a huge derate. When you get that high, the limitation is the dielectric insulation properties of the thin air on the I/O board, but I rarely use them, and would not in this app.

The PF525 drives I have will go to 20,000 ft.

I'm going to order the 1HP ABB drive because I need another one, and this will also run from 240VAC single phase.

Still searching for decent panels.

Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #434476 01/14/16 09:56 PM
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Will the PF525 do everything the other one does? Is that what we will be using?


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #434525 01/15/16 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Will the PF525 do everything the other one does? Is that what we will be using?


The PF525 does not have the solar macro like the ABB, but will run from a DC solar source, and you can tweak it to almost everything except for the MPPT. But, MPPT panels on the cell level would eliminate that requirement.

I was reading on a solar install for a gub agency in NY where the guy set it up strictly DC and they used the PF753's on that.

You do know, that if this ever happens, I'm gonna have to go to Colorado.

Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
JKB #434532 01/15/16 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Will the PF525 do everything the other one does? Is that what we will be using?


The PF525 does not have the solar macro like the ABB, but will run from a DC solar source, and you can tweak it to almost everything except for the MPPT. But, MPPT panels on the cell level would eliminate that requirement.

I was reading on a solar install for a gub agency in NY where the guy set it up strictly DC and they used the PF753's on that.

You do know, that if this ever happens, I'm gonna have to go to Colorado.


Gotcha

Well, hell yeah man I would hope you would come out!! Maybe Esshup would come too! Let's do it next September!


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Re: 9 acre pond at 10,000' - lots of aeration ?s
wbuffetjr #434535 01/15/16 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: wbuffetjr
Will the PF525 do everything the other one does? Is that what we will be using?


The PF525 does not have the solar macro like the ABB, but will run from a DC solar source, and you can tweak it to almost everything except for the MPPT. But, MPPT panels on the cell level would eliminate that requirement.

I was reading on a solar install for a gub agency in NY where the guy set it up strictly DC and they used the PF753's on that.

You do know, that if this ever happens, I'm gonna have to go to Colorado.


Gotcha

Well, hell yeah man I would hope you would come out!! Maybe Esshup would come too! Let's do it next September!


Yeah, you guy's go hunting/fishing/exploring, having fun, while I sit at my little plastic table with a dozen or so manuals open on my laptop to tweak parameters in.

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