Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Renovating a Pond or Lake? Kind of got my first quote... HELP

Not sure what to think of it... kind of disappointing. At first he asked what my budget was and I was like $4,000. The size of the pond is 100 x 50 which is about 1/8 of an acre.

I know prices can vary from location to location... let me give you an example of how cheap stuff is around here. You can get a new 1500 SQfoot house built including land for around 120K. So stuff is fairly cheap in my neck of the woods.

Anyways, everywhere I'm reading says around 10-20K an acre. I just took the top figure, 20K and divided it by 8 for the size pond I'm building. That gives you 2500. I know the smaller the pond the more it'll cost per acre... so that's why I upped my budget to 4000.

Then everywhere I'm reading people said they can dig a 1 acre per week which is almost 1/4 acre a day. Well mine is 1/8th of an acre... so I was figuring a day or two MAX (2,000 a day).

He said that he doesn't have to bring his big machine, he could probably dig it with his smaller equipment but he said it'll definitely take longer the 2 days and he charges 2K a day. Well why can't he bring his larger equipment in and have it done in that two day period? He also said he has never built a pond... this is his first. Which leads me to think from just basic economics... you should pay more for someone with more experience. I can see paying 5-6K to someone with a lot of experience... but someone with no pond building experience? Then he flat out told me that he can't guarantee it'll hold water.

He said he will call me back before the weekend with the final estimate. I'm guessing by the way he talked he's going to charge a min 6-8K with no pond experience, no guarantee it'll hold water, didn't have to much to say about building a hole for water runoff. This will be a dug pond, no dam.

Will every quote I get be like this? PLEASE HELP!! =)

Hi Rick,

First off, I am going to add THIS link to your previous post in regards to this. It may help answer a question or two that you don't need to repeat yourself.

My overall suggestion is to move on and keep looking for someone who knows about ponds. I had three guys look at mine, everyone was different in price and ideas of how it should be done. Unfortunately there is no one up in our area that comes highly recommended, at least that I know of. There was a guy on here a year ago that mentioned a name. I will see if I can dig that up. I ended up doing mine myself. Heck, if you were my neighbor, I'd say lets go at it and have some fun.

--Jim

I'm not sure about all the quotes but I don't think I'd use somebody that hasn't built a pond. Do you have any neighbors that have a pond? You may want to talk to them if you do. I'd check around some. It might cost more up front but if it's not done right the first time, you'll regret it later and it'll cost at least as much to have it fixed. No personal experience here but I have heard some horror stories. Maybe one of the northern guys will know somebody in your area. They'll be chiming in shortly I'm sure.

Move on. You don't want your pond to be this guys learning experience.....might be ok, but might not. Have you checked with your county extension office? They may have a list of pond builders in your area. If they do, give those guys a call and ask for references, then follow up on those references. You should be able to get an idea of where the talent lies, and what it's going to cost you.

Look into local garden stores or landscape shops and see if they know someone to recommend. Do you have a relatively local fish supplier you could ask?

He is probably selecting a smaller machine as it may be difficult to move around a larger machine in a smaller hole. There may be a better size to select that is more economical for the machines he operates.

The guy said it him self!! he has never built a pond.!!

Do you think you want to line it??

With plastic or bentanite??

I'd go to the local NRCS office and ask them for a list of pond builders. Then with list in hand, ask them if they were to give 5 or 6 contractors a call for a quote for a pond at their own house, who would be at the top of their list? That should get you pointed in the right direction

Stay faaaarrr away from Doug Wilson out of Edgerton!!!! Would you hire someone to build you a house that never has?

Before I would pay a rookie to build it I would be the rookie to do it if it was a mess up I would be the blame

Get names from nrcs or also ag extension office if you have one. If you have a spare 3 hours I can tell you what not to do. First on that list is don't use a rookie.

This situation is a bit strange. A guy without experience wants everything to be done by his rules. Should you?
If this guy ain't that cheap then better search for another one.

Thanks everyone, that makes me feel a little better. I'm not sure what to expect from contractors... I've never hired anyone to do any work.

I just couldn't believe this guy... immediately after he said he charges 2K a day and it'll take longer than 2 days, I asked "Well have you built many ponds". Just to let him know that I'm not going to pay a lot for a rookie. That's when he said he never has. This guy wants a premium price for something he's never done. If he wants to get into the pond building business, he needs to do a few relatively cheap to make sure he can do them. Then to boot towards the end he told me "Oh and I can't guarantee it'll hold water, my grandpa always told me tell someone you will dig them a hole, not build a them a pond". That's just what you want to hear from a contractor. I'm glad he doesn't build houses... I'd hate to see what is he would tell potential home buyers lol.

Then I told him I wanted the dirt spread around the north/east part of the pond and slope it so water runs towards the pond. On the west side of the pond, I have a bunch of trees that I want to keep. He kept insisting that he takes down ALL those trees and just pile the dirt right their. Then he told me that he will have at least a half day cutting down all the trees and burning them. I repeatedly said I don't want to cut down any trees. I want the dirt over their. We went back and forth about this.

Well that's my rant for the day =) This guy is 100% off the table... I don't care if he does come back with a better offer. I do have a larger company that's coming out tonight and they did say they have dug ponds.

Agree to not use the guy. That would be like using a lube guy to do a transmission.

I agree with gallop to check with the NRCS and get their list. However, anybody including this guy have their name added to the list. Use the list as a starting point. Ask for references of ponds that they have built. Then check the references. Check a lot of references in your area. Ask the other guy what he would have done differently.

The cost is determined by the job site and how much work has to be done. Filling a gully should be cheaper than digging a hole from scratch. An experienced pond builder can do the job quicker. He will know soils in the area and will check yours for clay/loam %, plasticity, packing with a sheepsfoot roller instead of the dozer, keyways, runoff areas/amounts, etc.

This is an expensive game. Dozers and diesel aren't cheap and they have to be maintained. They break down a lot. I've never run a dozer but figure I could. However, it would take me many times that of an experienced guy. And, an inexperienced pond builder who knows how to dig dirt and cut grade has to learn at your expense what the experienced guy already knows and has screwed up a couple of times.

The bottom line is that you are building a home for fish instead of a cattle watering hole. BTW, dang near all ponds leak to some extent.

Rick-
I sent you a PM(private email that should be under "my stuff" above".
I also know of a guy very close to me that has built many ponds right near me. He has experience for sure, however we did not exactly "connect" in our thoughts and so I moved on. It may be a possibility for you tho, since we are about 45 minutes apart. I will send that guys info to if you want.

Fish n chips - Thanks, I got that message, but the link was broken. Could you send it again?

Definitely send me that guys info if you have it available. Also, if you don't mind me asking since your relatively close to me. May I ask what size pond you were having quoted and what some of the prices were? Just to use it as a baseline as to what to expect/pay for one of these around our area.

So far I had two quotes. The first one wanted 4K without seeing the land. He seemed relatively very knowledgeable about ponds letting me know he's going to strip the topsoil, build a spillway, spread the dirt, etc. But I think he was offended when I asked to see a few of his ponds. Haven't heard back from him after that conversation.

The second quote was this guy which wanted a premium price and had no experience.

The third quote will be out tonight around 5:30

That sounds really expensive ... hard to imagine how much he charges an hour for his dozer ... my guy charged $85/hr ... larger dozer may be $110. My 28,000 sq ft (about 2/3 acre) pond cost me about $4500. Rural "downstate" Illinois is cheaper than many places, but certainly not THAT much cheaper.

I had a few trees along the "ditch" to remove, and moved quite a bit of dirt. I had one side with nice clay for the core, so that helped. I said what trees I wanted to keep, he knew stuff I didn't of course, so we figured it out ... it all went well.

I'm considering a ten acre pond (lake?) next, so may look into buying a scraper and dozer and doing it myself, though I'm not really a big equipment guy. But maybe for 1/8 acre you could oversee and talk, and just get a guy to work by the hour.

Not sure if you are wanting it eight feet deep in part, and you have to pay extra to load and unload the dozer, but it sounds like a one day job, maybe 12 hours? Hope you find the right guy.

I had another little ditch I had to dam up for access, and behind it is a one tenth acre "pond", but only four feet deep. It took about 2.5 hours to build that, with a wider than needed levee (the top right of the below pic ... dark green shows new grass on the levee.

The second pic shows the guy pushing clay into the core. It was 2012, really dry, but there was a little moisture. It was just tracked in, but seems fine. Pretty wide on that pond too I think.

A link to a discussion of cost : HERE.
I gave a small synopsis in that thread.

Generally the quotes ranged from 10,000 - 30,000 for 1.25acre
Yes- that's a big price range. There ideas varied that much too!!!!

Thanks for the pictures... yeah I think he's very expensive. He's at $2K a day... minus lets say $500 in fuel puts him at 1500 a day. After doing the math he's at around $185 an hour in his pocket for a dozer.

I agree with you, with the right equipment, it shouldn't take anymore than 2 days max. A day to dig the hole and a day to spread the dirt, compact the clay, etc. I know building a pond is more than digging a hole, but when they dug my house (roughly 100' x 30') they had it done in about a half day (5-6 hours). Their will be less dirt excavated from the pond than from my house because I'm only going 8' in the very center, my house is 8' all around. He said he couldn't dig that hole in 2 days. He must have the wrong equipment... or since I'm fairly young looking trying to pull my leg. I mean he did tell me he wanted to take down all my trees to pile the dirt right their and I told him I don't want those down... I have 2 acres of flat land you can spread it on. Then he kept insisting on it'll only take him a day to take those trees down (Yeah @ 2K a day) simply put he's trying to make the job look harder and add so much more work on top of that to get every penny.

I've done my research and I should have told him that. From reading & a good contractor can normally dig 1/4 an acre per day. Mine is around 1/8th an acre... actually closer to 1/10th an acre. To be honest, that hole should be dug in a matter of 6-8 hours. Then another 8 hours to grade the dirt, compact the clay and load his equipment up.

Since you're on pretty flat ground, and are mostly digging down, it doesn't seem like you'll have much pressure on a small levee. It's nice to push the top soil aside first and use it to cover subsoil that was moved, but other than that I'd think moving and compacting would largely be one process.

I'd challenge a guy and ask ... "you think you could do this in a day?" and let him accept the challenge and "gitter dun". Maybe offer him $1500 for the job, and he'd probably do it all in six hours. He (probably) won't push as hard on an hourly rate.

Anyway, I'm just curious ... most of the guys on this blog know more about it than I do, and sounds like you have a good plan in mind. Post lotsa pics when you get it going, if you can.

Oh, another thing ... since you're on pretty flat ground, he can push in both directions. I mean on mine, he was pushing to the dam, then backing up empty, then pushing, etc. But for you he can push and just turn around and push back the other way to pile up on the other side. Should go much faster. Call it five hours.

Got another quote... he was at 8K off the top of his head, but is supposed to let me know an exact figure tomorrow based on how much dirt needs moved. I definitely can't pay that... I'll try to give a few more people a call.

Question for the ones that built their own ponds. Did you guys rent an excavator & what size/how long did it take? Just for the heck of it, I priced one at a local rental place. The largest one they have is $275 a day. Let's say I go through 300 in fuel a day, That's $575 a day. If for some reason I needed it for 5 days, that's only $2875 for the week. I could rent it for 2 week and still save $2K

This is the largest one they have, would it get the job done?
http://www.generalrentall.com/catalog/product/mini-excavator-kubota-kx057-4

Any suggestions/tips if I decide to go this route?

Do you have any kind of tractor that can pull/push the dirt away from where you will be digging? An other option is a dump truck/trailer? With out that, you will be slowed down considerably. I am guessing that with what you are showing, you probably wont be able to reach out and down from the edge to the center of the hole and get the dirt out of your way in one pass. That means double handling with the bucket and then you still need to move it to where you want it spread out.

I am not a heavy equipment operator, however I have done various projects myself. I would look into a dozer like mentioned earlier.
However, that could be tricky with no experience, you might have pretty steep sides if you want to get any depth to a 50' wide pond.

Also, there will be a good chance you'll need a trash pump, and be delayed with rain the longer the project takes. Once you start digging, you want to stay on it till its done, at least that would be the best plan of attack.

You can rent bigger excavators, but not dump trucks, at least that's what I found. You can hire a dump truck.

I don't know about your prices or if this is even an option.. but my basement was about as big as the pond your wanting and I built it for 9 ft walls.. they dug the whole basement in about 4 hours and only charged me 350 bucks now this was a long time friend that normally charges 100-120/hr so he cut me a little break.. those guys that dig basement are awesome with track hoes and could build that pond in no time.. would it hold water that's another story lol.. might look into some of there prices for that small of a hole..

Also they did not have to go anywhere with the dirt they made a pile on each side of the house and I knocked it down with a tractor. And used it for landscaping berms/mounds. saved alot of time and money

Renting a dump truck might depend on what kind of drivers license you have too. GVW and air brakes.........

Here's where I get my equipment from:
http://www.wakarusaequipment.com/

Depending on the size of the equipment, you also might need a permit to move it, insurance in case something happens to it, and a way to fill the fuel tank. Some of the larger ones use 5+GPH, so that's a lot of 5 gallon cans of diesel to hump every day.

I rented equipment before where they gave me a better rate over the weekend. And you'd want to work 14 hour days, with maybe a friend working 10 more, assuming they don't limit the hours you can put on the machine.

I'm conspiracy minded maybe, but I wonder if the $8000 yahoo doesn't know the first guy. I know how much dirt my guy moved in 2.5 hours, even with a little time for us to put in a couple pipes. Your 800 yards (?) should take five hours at that rate, plus MAYBE 3 for top soil rearrangement and smoothing, a little compacting.

A good worker on a decent sized dozer would move four times as much as you could with the rental (just guessing), and do it better. If you could just find a guy to work by the hour. I think my guy said he could push about three yards at a time, so you could estimate how long per pass. I'm thinkin they'd push back and forth the short way first, then back and forth the long way as they got deeper in the middle.

But certainly doing it yourself has its own reward. But sitting back with a beer and watching the work is pretty nice too. anyway .. just some ideas

and yeah, the track hoe idea sounds interesting ... he could pack it a little with the scoop, and if you have a truck, put a couple scoops in back and you can drive around in circles the whole time ... for compaction. I actually wish I'd done that on mine ... just on the core.

Early on, you said that you were thinking about digging a pond to help dry up the surrounding area because it has no place to drain to. Two things come to mind now about this.

You may not want the best sealed pond. You would want the water level to drop some between rains so that it doesn't over flow the banks each rainfall. Otherwise, you are right back to were you started. Granted, this may not be the best scenario for a fish pond, but you need to decide the ultimate goal(s). I like BGK idea of a basement guy. Earlier, you even said that your basement didn't cost as much as they are telling you for this pond.

Second, you are creating a hole that is very similar to a swamp setting... a place that water won't drain out of. Down the road of 20 years or more, no one will ever know that you dug it. It might look like a swamp to someone else. I have heard mention on this site(or somewhere) that you should go on record with the proper "officials" before you dig. That way, in the future when you want to clean it out again, they won't say "no, you can't touch a wetland".

Is this truly the lowest point on your property? Sure would be nice if you could create a swale out and away.