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anthropic,
I did add salt and documented such in at least one of the posts in this thread.

I usually salt my nursery tanks to 3ppt (parts per thousand) but i try not to salt my aquaponics systems because some plants like strawberries and even tomatoes dont care for it. The fact i only lost two of 130 fish after transporting them 4 hours from lousiana where i met a fish truck that came from arkansas is outstanding results.

The fact is he was probably damaged at some point, maybe I crushed him a little when i set bag in the cooler for transport.

In addition to helping the immune system, salt also helps the fish breathe if the water is high in nitrites which was also happening.

Cecil, i used a home depot brand pond liner (total pond). I guess it's some sort of pvc so maybe that method wouldnt work for you.

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Brian,

Yes salt will alleviate nitrite issues too. Forgot about that.

Did you see how closely fit the dura-skrim will fit in a tank at the link I posted? You can't do that with EPDM. A heat gun will soften it up too.

PVC liner. Sounds interesting.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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The local aquaponics enthusiasts seem to be moving to the duraskim liners. The pvc based liner i just fold it like i am wrapping a christmas present, it's not going to mold or shape.

I am moving away from wood and pond liner grow beds. Between humidity, termites and general age, even pressure treated lumber doesnt have a long life here. This is one of the reason i started doing ferrocement.

The two i already built are on the agenda to be emptied, lowered and filled with soil to grow soil based plants like onions and carrots in traditional raised grow bed style.

My first ferro fish tank and grow bed didnt turn out as aesthetically pleasing as I was hoping but i learned a lot and the next two should be a huge improvement. Barring a sledgehammer or act of God, I expect them to outlive me.



These arent up to date pictures but you get the idea.




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Damn Brian! I'm impressed! You should share this on the Aquaponics Nation website!


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Wow! You aren't playing around, are you?

Brian, if memory serves, a decade or two ago there was serious research into whether crappie could be raised like tilapia or catfish. Turned out they could. Unfortunately, the government nixed the idea because they were afraid that it would be impossible to tell the difference between wild caught and farmed.

That probably means you are on the right track, that crappie can be feed trained. Good luck!


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Cecil, i share on byap. i can only keep up with one aquaponics forum and one aquaculture forum... and sometimes it's tough to keep up with only two.

if i ever get too belligerent and banned from byap, i'll be sure to try AN out.

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Back to crowding to get a better competitive feeding response:

I had a dog once that would eat something she didn't like if I pretended I wanted it. LOL

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 05/29/14 07:25 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: bcotton
Cecil, i share on byap. i can only keep up with one aquaponics forum and one aquaculture forum... and sometimes it's tough to keep up with only two.

if i ever get too belligerent and banned from byap, i'll be sure to try AN out.



AN is a much better site than any other aquaponics site! :-)

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 05/30/14 08:39 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Starting may 26 i have been feeding the crappie only softened commercial feed. So it's been a month, I think it's time for a results report.

I should also mention there has been a new crappie paper posted on SRAC and it covers feed training hybrid crappie. This would have been good information a couple of months ago when i started this https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/277/
The article claim successful feed training in 7 days. That may be possible if i had crowded them from the beginning, it's hard to say and a worthy goal for next year. They also claim the hybrid crappie will not eat from the surface but in my experience neither black nor hybrid had problems eating pellet from the surface.


Since i have only been placing commercial feed into the fish tanks for a month it is easy to pick out which fish are eating commercial feed and which are not. Here's some pictures to show what i mean.



It's easy to tell from above that a fish hasnt been eating commercial. He is emaciated. The body is thin and the head is much wider than the body.


Here is a top view of the healthy/feed trained black crappie. The body width is at least as wide as the head.



Top view of the feed trained/healthy hybrid crappie. Hybrid crappie are a lot more aggressive and the ones taking pellets are growing faster than the black.


here's a side picture of 5 hybrid crappie. 4 healthy fish and 1 emaciated/starving fish.


*all counting was done by hand and subject to human error and forgetting what number i am on, heh. But reasonably accept that they could be inaccurate within + or - 3 to 4 fish on any count.

I started with
60 black
70 hybrid

Ended with
42 feed trained Black
40 feed trained hybrid
8 emaciated black
10 emaciated hybrid


Findings
1) using lighting to trigger feed aggression was not necessary. The fish got accustomed to seeing me and that is trigger enough
2) I thought the ciclid pellets would be a better transition feed because of the small diameter and high protein but the fish seemed to like the larger diameter aquamax 400 more than the expensive pet store bought alternative
3) Early on, when aggressive fish try commercial feed for the first time, the were much more likely to spit out hard/dry commercial pellets and to swallow softer/pre-soaked pellets. However, It's only necessary to soak the pellets enough to make them soft. They dont need to be falling apart. 5-10 minutes is ideal. If you soak them too long they seem to break up when the fish try to swallow them and they sometimes cough up food chunks.
4) Crowding the fish is very important to feed training.
5) Warm water temperature could help with feed aggression but inconclusive based on the nature of my process.
6) Surface agitation that moves the pellets seems to help identify the pellet as food.


Possible reasons for error:
1) I moved the fish twice into three different size/shape tanks which at a minimum delayed the feed training.
2) the black crappie were in an opaque blue container as opposed to the hybrid which were in a more translucent white container.

Other thoughts and ramblings:
1) Despite the final numbers The hybrid crappie took to feed training more than the black crappie. The healthy feed trained hybrids are bigger, plumper and healthier looking than the black. When i handled all of the fish to count them they became stresses and shy. Withing 24 hours the hyrbids were coming back to the surface of the barrel to take food but it took the black crappie a couple of days and they are still not attacking and consuming the volume of pellets the hybrids are.
2) Expanding on Findings #1 AND #6: I kept an air stone in each tank that provided good aeration and surface agitation. On a few occasions, i would drop a teaspoon of pellets into a tank. The fish would attack the pellets and i would walk away. I would come back 10-15 minutes later to check for uneaten food and there would be a few pellets floating near the side not moving. But when the fish saw me, they would attack the pellets that were sitting there. Movement or the "trigger" can be a good way to initiate feed aggression.
3) i was surprised at how many non-feed trained crappie lived for a month without substantial food.. It was a new aquaponics system so there wasnt an established algae, snail or zooplankton colonies. I can only assume they were living off of filter feeding but overall truly amazing.


What now?
1) I moved both the hybrid and the black into white barrel tanks and i continue to feed them commercial feed. Over the next month i will move to only dry feed.
2) i moved the emaciated black and hybrid fish into a spare ibc tank and i have resumed feeding them blood worms and frozen krill. if i can get some of them to take pellets cool but i dont have high expectations since i dont have a "crowding" tank available. I had some leftover supplies but when they run out the untrained fish will become LMB and channel cat food in my outdoor aquaponics system.
3) Based on my article reading about crappie i am curious if white crappie may be a better option for aquaponics. They seem to prefer smaller bodies of water, turbid water (air stones!) and tolerate/like? less ideal water conditions. Again reproduction is not a problem in a 300-1000 gallon fish tank because fry cannot easily escape from predation.
4) i plan to do another feed train experiment next year. Hopefully I can find a source for white crappie to perform side by side comparison with black and hybrid.
5) my "bluegill spawn in 100 gallon aquarium" thread should be renamed "spawning sunfish in an aquarium" because next year(or the next) when the black crappie are mature, I will start working with spawning them using the technique(s) i am learning and developing reproducing bluegill and red eared sunfish.
6) if i am able to spawn and feed train any type of crappie in captivity, my aquaponics will become pretty much a monoculture for crappie. I may grow out a few channel cats or HSB as specialty, change of scenery but It will be mostly crappie.









Last edited by bcotton; 06/29/14 10:38 PM.
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Very good reporting and analysis - nice work - keep it up. We are all learning from your experiences. Thanks a lot for sharing.


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Thanks,

This forum provided me with so much help and information on how to work with native fish in RAS/aquaponics, I am glad i could contribute some.


Brian

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Some of the crappie (maybe half) seem to have regressed and are not eating commercial pellets. Maybe they never were, just werent emaciated enough for me to sort them out. But there's 15 or 20 of them that are feeding aggressively.


I moved the hyrbid crappie outdoors into my aquaponics system but the black crappie are in a garage winter system with about 400 tilapia. The fish tank is a pool i got on end of summer clearance for $30. I built a series of filters out of 55 gallon barrels. This is a RAS but not aquaponics.

ALL of my tilapia are Mozambique and they display the recessive color gene (orange) so it's easy to pick out the darker fish which are the black crappie. Some of them are really starting to put on some weight.

I'll do a full write up of the RAS in my ferro thread in a couple of weeks once i finish the rest of the filters.



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Very cool bcotton.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Some of those crappies are getting some good growth in.

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I may have to give give hatching and feed training crappies a try one year. If I could sex them after growing them out in one of my ras' and then plant, one sex in the trophy bluegill and yellow perch pond, there woukd definitely be a market for large crappies in the taxidermy market.

My problem is I only have two hatching ponds if I continue to grow out the trout in the third 1/10th acre pond. Probably won't get the pole building up for the trout until next year, :-(

Good job Brian!


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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I just noticed my picture links are broken. That is unintentional. I will fix that sometime this week. the pictures are still online its just a dns issue.

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bcotton- have you found one commercial pellet better than the others in respect to black crappies taking to it readily.

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Hey guys, its been a while but i am still working with aquaponics and native fish and doing what "they say" is impossible.

I have been feed training black crappie again this spring. With even better results than before. I am working on a more detailed video but just wanted to show off my progress and tease a little.. feel free to ask questions it will help me make sure i address what people want to know when i make the more complete video.



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Very cool report.


Nicely done and can't wait for the more in depth video.


Brian

The one thing is the one thing
A dry fly catches no fish
Try not to be THAT 10%
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Thanks for the update. Your current progress is very promising and will be eagerly received by many members. We look forward to more of your experiences and good information.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/02/17 06:55 PM.

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Well done Brian.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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I am still a while away from a complete report but i do have an update.

in the 100 gallon aquarium i had 100 bcp, 100bg, and 100 channel cats all in the 1-1.5" range. Last week i moved the fish outside and counted 31 BCP. They looked healthy as in they looked like they have been eating. (they have been in the aquarium for almost 3 months)

I moved the 31 BCP to my outdoor 700 gallon ferrocement tank in my aquaponics. I want to see how they do now without the crowding and without the bluegill competition.

I also had a 100 gallon stock tank with 100 bcp and 100 bg. From this tank i only counted 17 BCP. These too looked very healthy. I moved these 17 BCP into the now vacant aquarium, so i can do a smaller version of the same ferrocement test but i can see them better.

All of the bluegill went into an outdoor 1250 gallon fish tank in my aquaponics dedicated to bluegill and RES. I estimate that tank has around 400 fish total now. All of the channel cats went into a separate outdoor 1250 gallon aquapinic fish tank dedicated to channel catfish. there is between 150 and 200 channel cats in there now.


I was a little bit disappointed in these results. I felt like i was getting a much higher percentage of feed training but i guess not. The next stage is to see how well they retain the feed training when no longer crowded. Of course if they dont do well not crowded. I am in a situation that i could keep crappie crowded with res and bluegill their whole life.

The first two pictures are of bcp and bluegill from the 100 gallon tanks (when i was moving them outside). Most of the bcp are in the 3-5" range. It does look like the bluegill are outperforming them in growth

The second two pictures is of the last two bcp i have alive from my first feed training experiment along with a feed trained res.




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Its really just more of the same. I keep trying to improve the water quality and the video quality so you can see the crappie and see them eating commercial feed.

in this tank there's about 17 black crappie and 4 little stunted cc's. I like to keep the cc's in there to clean up the bottom... The crappie will eat commercial feed while its falling or while its floating but not once it settles on the bottom. So i like to have something to try to help keep the water from fowling

i just get so tickled when i see them eating commercial feed like any other domesticated fish


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Brian, you do a lot of interesting stuff that can't be done.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Brian, in lieu of crowding to create competition have you tried feeding much smaller amounts of food, but in more frequent intervals? The idea is to keep it competitive for the next meal without the crowding.



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