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I need some expertise as I have just been put in charge of the re-stocking of our 210 Acre lake in South Carolina. I am lost a bit and need some advice.


Some background I am sure will be needed, so here goes.

The lake is 210 acres, spring-fed,mostly 4-10 feet deep and the deepest part is 35 feet deep. The water is very clear to where you can see 8-10 feet deep and the PH is Currently 6.3. We are in the process of adding Christmas Trees and Pallets as the structure and cover is limited right now.

There are Largemouth Bass, Bluegill, Shellcracker, a small number of Hybrid Crappie, Chain Pickerel, Grass Carp,and Blue Catfish.

The Beavers are being trapped, Slider turtles seem fine, we have a pair of Bald Eagles as well as a few Ospreys.
Only 10-15 people fish this private lake and most bass are 1-2.5-3# fish.
Some fish between 4# and 8# are caught (but not often) and a 12# 12 ounce and a few 10#rs were caught last year.

We see a large amount of 3-5 inch bass and bluegill around most of the docks- they seem plentiful.

The HOA does not want to electro-shock to see exactly the balance of the lake and I cannot convince them, so it's a dead issue.

One company suggested the following fish to stock based on our budget and that most of the fisherman want bigger Bass.

30,000 Bluegill 3-4"
15,000 Shellcracker- 3-4'
2,000 4-6" Bluegill
2,000 4-6" Shellcracker
1,500 Largemouth Bass-2-4"
30,000 Fathead Minnows

Questions I have:

-Does this balance of fish make sense and if not any suggestions?

- I now have been asked to add Crappies as well. Will this effect the bass negatively and how many Crappie could/should we add?

- Would it be beneficial to add Dye to the water and what would it cost approximately?

- How much Lime would need to be added to increase the PH from 6.3 to a healthier PH amount?
- Are Fat Head minnows better in this case than Mosquito Fish?
- Any other suggestions?

Thank You for any guidance and thoughts.

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I'm not even close to being qualified to make suggestions, but I am curious...why are you restocking? Based on what you have now, which sounds pretty good to me, what changes are you looking for?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I think you should hire a professional for that size of lake.

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We are restocking because the fishermen and women want to see more LMB between 4# and 10#s. They are saying the fishing has slowed way down the last 3-5 years in number of fish and size of fish.

The HOA does not trust outside professionals as they think they are just overpaid salesmen. I may not agree, but the monies I have been given can only be spent on actual fish, building structure, Liming or feeding the fish.

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I fear you will just be wasting money and providing expensive snacks to the present population.

Maybe a slot limit? I will have to leave that to the professionals.

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With a lake that big you really need a professional to come out and do a survey. Based on the numbers you gave I would say you are looking at $20,000 of fish that may not be needed. A $1500 electrofishing survey would help you determine if additional stocker fish are needed and if not the money can be used somewhere else where it would have a greater impact.

Dying a lake that size will first be expensive, and second will probably be ineffective. Do you have an idea of the flow rate that is leaving the lake? If you have a high flow rate out of the pond the dye will dissipate quickly and not do what it was designed to do.

With a lake that big you could try Crappie. They usually aren't recommended in small lakes because their spawning cycles are boom or bust and they have a tendency to stunt.

Liming will be ineffective in a spring fed lake because it will quickly be washed out in a similar fashion to the dye.

Fathead minnows will be better for a new lake or pond. They reproduce much quicker than mosquitofish.

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I will not offer any advice because I'm just learning about such stuff myself but one question that came to me after reading your post is:

Are the fish being caught catch and release or or they being harvested? In other words, if they are being harvested are more fish being taken out than the lake can provide growth for replacement?


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In a BOW that size, not hiring a professional is like being sick with something serious and not going to a doctor, instead stopping the first person you meet on the street for advice.

Without an electroshock survey, you have no idea what fish are in the BOW. Stocking more fish on top of what is in there without knowing what is actually needed is flat out throwing money away.

That's like taking medicine without knowing if that nedicine will work on what's ailing you.

Give the HOA board of directors the information how to get to this place and have them look at it.

But on the other hand, if they are that set on their ways to throw money away, there's not much you can do about it.


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These HOA boards crack me up. Why are people so ignorant some times?

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I agree with all of the above. If you have plentiful small bass you certainly don't need more.

I believe I would pay attention to the forage base of bluegills and try to grow them. The bass will follow.

If the fishing for large bass has declined, it is because they aren't getting the proper amount of forage(food) that they need. The bass need forage that is between 1/4 to 1/3 their body size and the old rule of thumb is that it takes 10 pounds of groceries for a bass to gain 1 pound. That 1/10 is often debated here. You just might have a situation where the small bass are over eating the bluegills before they get a chance to grow large enough to make a proper meal for the larger predators.

Think about this. The best cattle ranch manager is a grass farmer. The cow is the predator and the grass is the prey(forage). If the cows over graze the grass, the ground bakes and has a problem replenishing itself. However, if the cows are rotated around, the forage base has a chance to replenish. Culling of the herd is also vital. If the cow has to walk too far in search of food, it loses weight and fails to thrive. Thus, both the predator and forage stay healthy when both predator and prey are balanced. It's the same with rabbits and coyotes.

Like others here, I would hire a professional with a good reputation for lake management and not fish selling. If that is a dead issue, I think you are hosed and need to tell them to find someone else to waste their money. From what you are saying, I think restocking without not knowing the current situation is a good way to blow $20,000.

Actually, it sounds like, to me, that more fish is not what you need AT THIS TIME.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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See this link on how to assess lake fish condition and balance. Do a seine survey and in depth catch analysis with pics. Also write down exactly what each fisherman has caught/seen over the last 3 years as best you can and compile that info. Start collecting RW info.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92492#Post92492



I would not spend that money on fish at present. You need an electroshock survey to go with the info above to make an informed choice. You might be better served to start a supplemental feeding program and think about an alternative forage fish (Tshad , Gshiners or other). You may not be using your open water to raise forage (unused niche). Hybrid crappie do reproduce and not at insignificant amounts.

Relative Weight threads (RW) and growth info

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=231704&page=1

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post163866

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post187383



Last edited by ewest; 11/19/13 10:11 AM.















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Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
These HOA boards crack me up. Why are people so ignorant some times?


Good question. One of the biggest fallacies I've run into in pond management is if the fishing is not good the body of water needed to be planted with more fish. Most of the time that couldn't be further from the truth.

To have the money to plant fish that probably aren't needed but not get a serious diagnosis of the pond situation strikes me as penny wise pound foolish.


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I ran in to the same problem with a HOA. But, when I explained to them why stocking more fish without knowing what was in the BOW, they agreed. They were suprised when I said "don't stock fish until you know what is in the BOW". They were used to people selling them anything that they thought they needed, and weren't used to someone telling them NOT to do something. i.e. keep that money in their pocket for now.


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A little info and a couple opinions about the ecology of the lake. Baseline: .."lake is 210 acres, spring-fed, mostly 4-10 feet deep and the deepest part is 35 feet deep. The water is very clear to where you can see 8-10 feet deep and the PH is Currently 6.3."

Clear water indicates low nutrient concentrations which means the lake is not real productive compared to fertile eutrophic waters. This could be due to low alkalinity and or abundant weed (plant) growth to compete for nutrients instead of having abundant phytoplankton (grass that feeds everything else). Submerged weeds could appear to be a problem, however weeds are habitat. Good habitat grows good wildlife.

201 acres can still have a very good fish community of good ranges of sizes but just not as much as a more fertile cloudy greenish water lake. Steelman is correct adding lake dye is not good since it will lower productivity even more by limiting phytoplankton (base productivity) which in turn limits zooplankton which limits growth of all sizes of fish.

Anglers are still catching fish and some large fish which indicates the food chain is present. One key item is to make sure the natural foods produced are not overeaten by too many smaller mid-sized fish. Balance and the correct numbers of fish in each size group that are present is key to maintaining balance and achieving fishery goals. A good fish survey tells the manager what the current balance is. Every angler or the most frequent anglers should be required to keep catch records to help with determining fish sizes and balance. Several fishing methods / techniques should be used to monitor the fish community. Pan fishing, predator angling, and forage fish sampling, all with catch records, are very important for measuring fish community balance. The HOA does not know the fish balance and community structure which should be well known before adding more fish.

Most bodies of water do not need more fish stocked despite what many think is best for improving a fishery. More is not always better. What most waters really need more than anything, is selective harvest of fish that are too abundant in a certain size class.

Often to improve a fishery using funds to implement a fish feeding program is efficient use of monies. Look at what a fish feeding program did for the high flow through, nutrient poor Richmond Mill Lake that now has a world class trophy fishery. Regularly adding more fish did not produce this high quality fishery. It was wise professional management designed for the current habitat and conditions. The key component is getting someone smart enough to asses or evaluate the habitat and then doing what works best to optimize those conditions.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/19/13 12:14 PM.

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Given they aren't going to shock the lake or hire a professional , I would be inclined to go with the fish feeding program. If adding anything, maybe some feed trained LMB or Hybrid Striped Bass. Are they against Hybrid Striped Bass? Those can grow rapidly on a feed program and personally I think are more fun to catch than LMB. You would probably need to cage them (let them grow out ) somehow depending on their initial stock size but with the funds they are willing to spend on stocking ,it shouldn't be a problem.

If nothing else, get the fisherman to chart the fish they catch this year , and agree to address the following year or after a few months it might become obvious to address a slot with the lmb.


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I'm also inclined to go with the feeding program. Maybe you could work with the HOA and teach people who live shore side to help with this. I would also advise to at least mix sinking pellets with floating food. When feeding floating feed alone only the larger adults get the feed and the smaller ones miss out. Another thing I noticed is the Christmas trees. Unless you weight the bottom and add floats to the top these will just clump up on the bottom and make good place to snag fish hooks on. Most people around here either make or buy the artificial ones.


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Xmas trees are a very good choice for the right goals. I have used them for many purposes for 20 + years. See the structure archive for uses and methods.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463#Post92463

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Bill,

If the lake association doesn't want to pay for competent management I'd predict disaster with an extensive feeding program.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 11/19/13 10:15 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Bill,

If the lake association doesn't want to pay for competent management i'd predict disaster with an extension feeding program.


+1

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You could check and see if either USC or Clemson would like to send out some of their Marine sciences or aquaculture students to do some field work. wink

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Originally Posted By: Foodeefish
Only 10-15 people fish this private lake and most bass are 1-2.5-3# fish.
Some fish between 4# and 8# are caught (but not often) and a 12# 12 ounce and a few 10#rs were caught last year.

I am certainly the least qualified to offer any type of advice or suggestions, but based upon the above quote and what's been caught, I would love to be angler #16!

IMO, 10-15 (of the same) anglers in a 210 acre lake is not what I would consider accurate sampling!

Many of you have said if you're having a hard time catching the big ones out of your pond, invite someone who's never fished it as they always seem to find 'em!

I've always been a LMB fisherman, but since having my own 2 acre pond I've pretty much put away the normal LMB tackle and 10-20lb test for the ultra-light equipment. My brother's girlfriend shows up on Sunday with a 6.5' rod, 25lb braided line and a Gene Larew 4.5" Mega Ring Tube. She casts straight out into the middle of the pond and while yackin' away, pulls in a nearly 3# LMB.

Guess what I went back to the shed for?

My point is, it seems as though the fish are in there but maybe the angler's don't want to work hard enough to find 'em?


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CB1 & jludwig say "If the lake association doesn't want to pay for competent management i'd predict disaster with an extension feeding program."

I wholeheartedly agree. Implementing a fish feeding program should not be started unless it is known what the current status is of species and size groups that currently comprise the fish community. This shows which species would benefit best from the feeding program. Good baseline fishery information needs to be known about the fishes present so comparisons can be made to see how well the feeding is helping improve the fishery. The main problem as I see it is the lack of confidence that the HOA has about the benefits a knowledgeable fishery expert can provide.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/19/13 07:33 PM.

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Agree about HOA, if they are willing to spend all that $ to stock fish, it seems a shame they can't agree on getting a Prof. To help and provide a shock survey. The lake actually sounds like it's in ok shape based on the description, what if you stock and spend all that $ and nothing changes, or things actually get worse in terms of the avg lmb.

My idea on the feed program was to introduce some feed trained lmb and HSB in certain areas, not sure how easy/difficult this would be , but know of some large private lakes that do this....all that said, they are all prof. Managed...hence the advice above from Bill, Cecil, etc...


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I'm no expert either but I agree with Bill Cody. Sounds like the water is WAY to clear to be fertile, or is that normal in SC? Water that clear around here means the pond or lake needs fertilizer. The general rule around here is if you stick your arm down in the water and can still see your hand at 18 inches, fertilize the pond.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
CB1 & jludwig say "If the lake association doesn't want to pay for competent management i'd predict disaster with an extension feeding program."

I wholeheartedly agree. Implementing a fish feeding program should not be started unless it is known what the current status is of species and size groups that currently comprise the fish community. This shows which species would benefit best from the feeding program. Good baseline fishery information needs to be known about the fishes present so comparisons can be made to see how well the feeding is helping improve the fishery. The main problem as I see it is the lack of confidence that the HOA has about the benefits a knowledgeable fishery expert can provide.


It would be interesting to know why they have this lack of confidence. Perhaps they had a bad experience with a self proclaimed expert? I've heard of celebrity anglers that think they are experts on bass management just because they can catch them.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 11/21/13 08:30 PM.

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