Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose 1/10ac swimming/fishing pond - Stock w/ BNM/YP

Hey all, I've recently completed a 1/10 acre kidney shaped pond, with 12' max depth and a 4' wide shelf (3' from surface) all around the side of the pond, with cement block and rock structure for forage fish. Pond is refilled by run off and a tiny 3-season brook. The pond currently has thousands of BF tadpoles inside.

I'm thinking that the pond will have bluntnose minnows, yellow perch and possibly pumpkinseeds. I'd like to stock pumpkinseeds because my family enjoys eating panfish and that pumpkinseeds have smaller mouths than BG and likely won't disturb the food chain as much? The pond will not have too much fishing pressure unless it is required to maintain the fishery. Would this create a sustainable food chain, if not, what should I stock instead?

I've recently got my hands on a few bluntnose minnows that I put in my aquarium until winter is over. I'm trying to get them to breed but so far have been unsuccessful. Some pictures below. (Sorry, they don't stay still for long!) The furthest I've gotten was when one male grew breeding tubercles on its head but they have since went away without any breeding. Any input on what breeding temperature/lighting parameters would be appreciated!

Breeding tubercles visible (but blurry!) on the bottom left fish. I have no idea how else to sex these fish and make sure I have females.
[img:left]http://imgur.com/FCqxJSy[/img]

[img:left]http://imgur.com/AEnt7NJ[/img]

[img:left]http://imgur.com/XiZyprS[/img]

Bonus salamander.
[img:left]http://imgur.com/xGHubp0[/img]

In a pond with just bluntnose minnowa(BNM), yellow perch(YP) and pumpkinseed sunfish(PS) you're going to have issues with stunting. Especially if you don't do extremely management efforts like egg strand removal, trapping, angling, seining, etc.

It has been my experience PS do not have any smaller of a mouth than BG. If anything, I think their mouth is slightly larger. I wouldn't worry too much about mouth size though.

Here's my idea of a similar fishery where I think you would have more success:

Source more BNM and stock them in your pond this spring. The more you can get the better, but only a few dozen will be more than enough. If you are able to source other species like spotfin shiners(often found in the same habitat as BNM), stock those as well. Give these buggers a full year to spawn and populate your pond.

Then next fall, you can source 50 YP. Fall is usually the best time to buy YP, look for fish in the 4-8" range, this should get you more females than males, but enough males to make things happen. If you are willing to feed pellets, getting pellet trained YP will allow you to have more YP and get bigger ones. Around the same time or the following spring, I would look at trying to source some redbreast sunfish(RBS). I think they will be a better option for your pond than PS. However, if you really like PS, you can give them a try. I would just be more concerned about them over populating. I would also stock ONE smallmouth bass(SMB). Get one that is 6"-10" in size. You can also consider stocking a small number(5ish) of walleye(WE) and/or hybrid striped bass(HSB).

You definitely have BNM from your photos. Did you source them from the wild? If so, congrats on the capture and successful ID!

The tricks to getting BNM to spawn in an aquarium are to lower temps if possible for a couple months, 50's and even 40's would help... Also, play with the photoperiod. As in, start out with only 10 hours of light a day and over a 3 month period gradually increase the time the aquarium receives light. The other big factor is feed. BNM are not picky and will eat most anything, but to put them in the baby making mood, live(brine shrimp) or frozen feeds like glass worms, blood worms, etc will help the cause.

Also, make sure you have some areas they would like to spawn under. However, even if they do spawn in your aquarium, raising them to maturity is very challenging and time consuming.

Thanks for the help! I have been trying to find more BNM in the creeks in the area but was unable to do so. I'll keep an eye out for spotfin shiners as well. I'm very wary of misidentifying fish and putting them into the pond. What is the benefit of stocking Spotfin shiners in addition to BNM?

Question, can you tell me why RBS would be better for the pond? Less reproduction? Also, would WE or HSB bite swimmers?

For the BNM, I have lots of shelter for them to spawn under. Are you saying that they spawn in cooler temps as opposed to higher temps? I have the water at 75 degrees F currently. Thanks.

Consider this alternative. A 0.1ac swimming pond is not very big of an area to raise fish. Plus you are concerned about water clarity for swimming. I am working with a neighbor with same goals as yours, but with a 0.2ac pond with bottom aeration run 4-6 hrs per day. Pond has three small clumps of 3 yr old starts of hardy hybrid water lilies - variety Fire Opal. This past spring was complete fish renovation, and re-establishing minnows (FHM & BNM) plus 10 blue tilapia for algae control. Pond condition was very good this year - water clarity 6-9ft with sparse blue dye. Tilapia & their offspring kept algae eaten and minnows spawned and thrived. This fall I added 24 spotfin shiners & 24 papershell crayfish, but may not have needed either one. In early April during yellow perch(YP) spawning, I will add 25-30 just female, fat, full of eggs YP, and in June 8-10 blue tilapia for algae control. No pellet feeding of YP to minimize nutrient inputs. No perch reproduction prevents overpopulation, stunting and over-eating the food source. No other predators or panfish to complicate the food chain. Then we sit back and watch for the pond to respond. If more predators of minnows is needed I add several more female YP. I suggest that you consider following the same simple plan to get your pond established. Then make adjustments as needed. IMO if you use single sex perch you will not need shiners. Shiners diversify the food chain for enhancing reproducing predators. I have found that with limited numbers of perch as the only predators the FHM can maintain a breeding population. In these instances bluntnose provide a little diversity to the food chain.

Bill,
This is about where I might be by spring with my west michigan pond of similar size.

Can you explain the rationale behind the 20-25 female perch. You say that there will be no perch reproduction to prevent overpopulation. Are you assuming the perch will be fished out and then replaced every year or so? Or are you assuming since they are full of eggs that the eggs will somehow become a mix of female and male perch, most of the fry will be eaten and a few will survive to continue the adult perch population at a low level? Won't the subsequent generations be able to reproduce at a higher level and get back to an overpopulation issue without predators?

Can someone order 'gravid perch' only or do you have ways sex them at time of delivery? Obviously if they are full of eggs it might be quite easy but wasn't sure how that type of special order was placed.

I've learned a lot as a 'lurker' and see the wisdom of being patient with your stocking plans. I can live with no predators but wondered how your plan in the post above would play out in the next year or two.

Is the June date for the 8-10 tilapia just based on needing water temps in the 50s? What size tilapia would allow only 8-10 fish to keep .2 acre pond fairly clear of algae? I'd prefer to not use the dye route as i learn more about how the pond might be able to balanced with control of nutrients, plants growing in, and with the help of the right number and size tilapia.

Thanks for your insight!

canyonck - what are the goals for the pond swimming and clear water or swimming and catching a few fish? Fish to harvest or no harvest?

Rationale for 20-25 female YP is for no reproduction despite forming eggs. Without males, eggs are not fertilized and usually reabsorbed or laid unfertilized. No reproduction, no offspring. Occasionally large, old females become egg bound and die. If YP are removed or die from old age or improper handling by anglers then they should be replaced to maintain the original predator-prey balance. Using 20-30 YP in 0.2 ac equates to 100-150 adults per ac surviving only on natural foods in a clear clean water pond - oligotrophic (low nutrient, low production)conditions. In my extensive experience with YP, a 0.2 ac clear water pond should be able to produce enough natural foods to allow the limited number of adult YP to survive and grow well. Limited annual growth means there are too many YP for the particular pond's food chain. Reduce the number.

Female YP sources. Locating them is the problem for all but aid anglers, fish raisers, and pond owners. A few, select co-operative fish farms might hand pick and sell only female perch. Paying a premium or extra price for a few hand sorted fish should be offered and should be expected. In my experience these fish farms are rare places and many will not do it. To find these willing fish farms one has to do diligent homework. I usually angler catch and/or raise my own YP to select females pre-spawn, during or soon (1-3wks) after spawning when spawned out females are recognizable. I always travel to the accommodating fish farm get my female YP - often 3.5 hrs one way. They are definitely a premium fish so one has to make allowances to get them.

Question asked: "...but wondered how your plan in the post above would play out in the next year or two." I have done this stocking of only female YP in small ponds several times, the first one in 2004. In this pond, a few of the original stockers are still alive but only a small number. Thus some of the YP can survive up to 9 years. The minnow populations have now reverted back to being dominated by FHM instead of bluntnose, thus I know that most of the YP predators have died out.

The May-June stocking date for tilapia is based on water temps of the necessary stocking temps of tilapia being the high 60's- lower 70's. Ideally you want the tilapia to be sexually mature so they start spawning soon after stocking so the youngsters quickly start eating and 'cleaning up' spring growths of algae. With YP as the only predators, the stocker tilapia need only be smaller sizes of 4"-5" long. So if they are not mature one needs to stock more of the smaller ones so good algae control is achieved early in the summer season. Reduced numbers of predators means one has to manually remove dead tilapia, mostly smaller ones when water temps dip into the low 50's. Removing dead tilapia removes bound nutrients and reduces cold water algae growths that will likely occur later before the next tilapia stocking.

Pond dye is not needed but expect more plants including algae growth in deep water (6-10ft deep). If you have adequate numbers of beneficial plants then often then there is usually no problems with excessive algae (FA) growths. But even in clear water (vis 6-10ft) some beneficial submerged plants and algae can grow 10-15ft deep. Aquashade and similar blue-yellow dye combos will limit submerged plants to shallower water. With a natural clear water pond, and a relatively bare bottom, one will always have to deal with invasive nuisance pond weeds such as Chara, milfoil, curly leaf pondweeds, elodea, etc.

In "newish" ponds for clear water & swimming and limited, controlled numbers or no panfish, PM me for additional natural clear water information.

I like RBS for a pond such as yours as they have minimal reproduction in ponds. They are more adapted to spawning in conditions that SMB prefer. So their reproduction is limited by that as well as their over all fecundity is much less than PS as well.

HSB and WE will not bite swimmers, RBS may... I think of all sunfish species, if you must have one I would go with RBS with PS being the second option for you locale.

I think a major point of this is, if you have a micro pond, say .33 acres and smaller, using non reproducing predators is a very smart idea. In ponds this small, trying to maintain a balance with reproducing predators over and extended period of time can be a nearly impossible challenge. By utilizing single sex predators or species which cannot reproduce in ponds(WE, HSB) you can closely control their numbers. You want more, you add them, you want less you take them out. No working with their reproduction and the often boom or bust that can happen with predator reproduction in a micro pond. Although the numbers of fish is limited, the ones you do have in the pond will grow to quality sizes as they will not out eat themselves in their small home.

YP are easy to sex during the spawning season as are crappies. Both can be caught in reasonable numbers by an average angler. If they are obtained from a known healthy pond and transferred to yours, their shouldn't be much risk involved. As you remove them through fishing, you simply obtain more from either a hatchery(which is a challenge as Bill mentioned) or from a friend who has a known healthy pond. I have done this myself with crappies.

Bill,
Thanks for the very nice reply. That really helps me understand the points and why you made them. I still have a question why you indicated you wanted female that were 'full of eggs' of those eggs served no purpose once they were in the new pond. Was it just to be sure the fish were truly female? Or when they are full of eggs are they at their strongest point and better able to survive the catch/capture and release or 3.5hr one way trip to your pond?

When I get a spare few hours I'm going to start part 1 (or maybe chapter 1?) of my pond story. I hope to have pictures too. A good cold weather project. I'm eager to learn more.

I'm thinking the minnow, YP, and maybe someday small number of HSB might be the best 2 year plan. I'll also plan to do Tilapia and may use the Aquashade if somehow it can concentrate itself in the deeper waters. I enjoyed the clear water this year and enjoy being able to see the shallows.

HSBC may unfortunately not be an option in Michigan, check with your DNR to be sure... WE are legal for sure though.

We select 'full of eggs' females to be sure they are females. One can also select females within 1-2 weeks of laying eggs if one knows what to look for sex determination. One mistake of a male fish and all plans go array and management becomes a lot more complex. If YP eggs are laid on temporarily placed tree branches and the eggs removed this removes a significant amount of phosphorus laden protein from the small pond ecosystem that if left to decay in the pond results mostly in early spring FA growth. YP eggs in west MI will be laid primarily the first two weeks in April; late spawners 3rd wk of Apr.

Light applications of Aquashade have reduced plant suppression affects but the clear light blue water looks more appealing visually.

Give the few bluntnose minnows that you have all next year to spawn and you will have lots and lots (thousands) of small minnows.

As the pond matures and nutrients accumulate as they always do, more plant growth will appear. Be prepared and enjoy the clear no dye pond as long as possible.

Thanks CJBS and Bill for your insight. I'll likely stock the pond with BNM and Spotfin Shiners in the spring. I like the idea of using nonreproducing apex predators in WE to control the population. If needed, the pond is small enough to seine.

I see that stocking FHM is an indicator of sorts of the pond's balance. Would it be a good idea to stock my pond with FHM as well? Or would the current forage fish serve the same purpose?

I would give the BNM and SFS a chance to full establish themselves first, especially if your original stockings of either is in limited numbers. Acquiring FHM is very easy, and they are fairly cheap. So I would try to source and stock as many of the BNM and SFS next spring as you can. If you need help with IDing them, take photos and post on here. Give those two at least into June and even July to spawn and then see if you are seeing good numbers of fry and young of year fish present. If it seems you are seeing good reproduction from them, then I would consider adding a pound or two of FHM to the mix.

A small pond of 0.1 ac will not take long to reach carrying capacity of any reproducing fish species including minnow species. I would delay stocking WE or any other predator until you are having fish populations that need controlling beyond manual efforts. You may not need "apex predators" in a clear water nutrient poor swimming pond. Predators do not read the book about what species and size to eat and sometimes can complicate fish management esp in small ponds.

CJBS - I think I will stick with BNM and SFS for now and see if they can maintain forage fish populations on their own. I'll be sure to post up pictures if i get them. You've changed my mind on the RBS, i think i'll stay away from sunfish for now. If anything I can head over to local ponds 10 minutes away and get bluegill/pumpkinseeds.

Bill - that's a really good point I haven't considered. I very much might be able to control populations of YP without predation. If I were to harvest YP, should I remove larger YP from the pond or remove as many smaller YP?

More fish to ID!

Creek chub?
[img:left]http://imgur.com/ou6TjLZ[/img]

[img:left]http://imgur.com/HYmwOh9[/img]

Blacknose dace?
[img:left]http://[/img]

[img:left]http://imgur.com/ojhtTJO[/img]


Additional question: would adding papershell crayfish to a swim pond be a good idea? Do they tend to get aggressive and pinch or swim away?
Thanks!

I've never heard of aggressive crawdads.

""I've never heard of aggressive crawdads."" Oh yes, crawdads, crayfish or mudbugs can be aggressive or ornery in two ways. 1. One way is with other crayfish where the offending species acts like a bully and out competes in probably several ways to eliminate other less aggressive crayfish species. Aggressive crayfish are more difficult for fish to prey on them due to their overall defensive nature. 2. Second way is how the bully mudbug behaves when threatened or handled. These guys are very eager to lift their claws and pinch onto anything that gets within reach. Fingers are easy targets. One good example of a common aggressive crayfish species is the rusty crayfish Orconectes rusticus. An example of a much more docile crayfish is the papershell or calico crayfish Orconectes immunis, who rarely pinch the handler when scooped up gently from underneath.

Question asked was - ""If I were to harvest YP, should I remove larger YP from the pond or remove as many smaller YP?" Harvesting will depend on goals, sexual nature of yellow perch stocked, and type of pond. It is rarely simple. In the small swimming pond type and number to harvest will be largely influenced manly by if the perch population is reproducing or not. Obviously a pond with single sex YP will be a put and take situation. A small pond with mixed sex perch that are recruiting individuals each year could require an active annual harvest to keep the population balanced considering the size of the pond. Adult YP will eat a small percentage of the young perch. Thus having a significant portion of the perch being large adults is a benefit since they will consume some fingerling perch. Shiners and large minnows will eat a few of the fry. If the hatch is fruitful a lot of the small 2"-4" perch should be harvested by trapping or seining before they are big enough to exert a big predation pressure on the small minnows. Removing lots of the young perch will result in less competition an more available food for the remaining young perch and mid-size perch (5"-7"). The mid-size perch need to have ample food so they grow to harvestable sizes (8"-12").

If one would want to harvest some adult perch for occasional table use from an ultra clear pond then the number to harvest will be strongly influenced by recruitment or supplemental stocking. In my articles about raising YP in ponds, I suggest that in low fertility water one can harvest 20-40 lbs per acre. A swimming use, clear water pond may not be productive enough to support this amount of harvest and the number may be more realistically closer to 10-18 lbs/acre/per year. Thus for 0.1 acre the harvest would conservatively be one to 2 pounds per year which equates to 3 to 6 adults 8" long per year.

In general, harvest in the small ultra-clear water swimming pond needs to be aggressive especially of small perch in order to prevent food shortages. The total number of offspring that needs to survive to adulthood each year is close to the number that is harvested. Natural foods will be comparatively low productivity wise in an ultra clear low nutrient pond. This is why I suggest using the female only YP stocking plan in this type of habitat. Benefits are, one knows about how many adults are present, how many are harvested and how many to restock. Clear water low nutrient ponds are very limited in how many adult fish they can support using an only all natural food chain. Reproducing fish can easily become over populated and all individuals become thin bodied - a definite sign that too many fish are present.

The first and second fish appear to be creek chubs. They will survive in a pond, but will not spawn in them unless there is flowing what like a stream.

The third fish is definitely a blacknose dace. Although they will survive quite well in a northern pond, just like with the creek chub without flowing water like a stream, they will not reproduce.

CJBS - Thanks for the ID confirmation. I think i saw a big 7-8" creek chub in the pond cruising around hunting tadpoles. A creek close to the pond has tons of trout and blacknose dace, but no BNM or SFS.

Bill- It looks like I'll be doing a lot of catch and release of larger YP and culling of smaller YP. I'm going to try and expand the forage base with additional species and try to maximize production. What else can I do to maximize production? I understand this would mean compromising the clear water swimming aspect of the pond.

I measured the pond instead of estimating and it looks like I have .25ac instead of .1ac. Not much more but I'll take what I can get!

Maximizing production means increasing fertility to increase the amount of organisms that create the food chain - food web. This can be done two ways by fertilizing or feeding pellets or various combinations thereof.

The best way to do this for a swimming pond and still maintain "fairly" clear water is to feed the fish high protein pellets at least 40% protein. Lower protein pellets tend to result in more overall waste and nuisance algae growth. Pellet feeding does not have to be done each day and it can be reduced to 2X to 3X per week. However this also reduces production amounts and growth rates. Generally in water with higher alkalinities (60-100ppm) 'general' pellet feeding reduces water clarity to 2.5ft to 4 ft. clarity during pellet feeding will be higher if submerged weeds are common.

Be prepared if you increase production. You will get more algae growth from all pellet feeding, but generally more algae with cheaper lower 32% protein pellets. The number and density of forage fish also benefits from pellet feeding especially if the pellets are various sizes or presoftened (hydrated). Small fish can easily, and readily eat the larger soft, damp pellets and you don't need several sizes. Soft pellets can also be easily crumbled for small fish. Aquamax Purina makes pellets of many different sizes. Often one can buy smaller quantities (<50lbs) of small pellets from local fish farms where you get your fish.
See this topic about softening fish pellets
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=27798&Number=356790#Post356790