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BMRENN Offline OP
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Hello,

Question for you here on leaving trees/islands in a small pond (< 2acres) with 10-12 ft max depth...

I have read perfect pond and other sources for HOURS and HOURS and HOURS, and it seems that general reco. is to seal and compact the (clay) bottom for all pond construction (other than using a liner).

What I don't comprehend is; by leaving some standing timber at the bottom or a few islands... Is that a potential source of leakage (through the roots if they penetrate your clay layer into a more porous soil)?

Also when leaving an island (with trees) either just above or below final water level... Should the clay pond bottom be disked into the island topsoil and compacted to prevent sandwiching layers or leaking at that point(like the process to add soil to the top of a dam)?

Or am I just overthinking this? It seems many people with embankment ponds simply create a dam and flood native ground leaving plenty of brush/timber/native topsoil that is not removed and/or compacted underneath.

Thanks for any help.


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Originally Posted By: BMRENN

Or am I just overthinking this? It seems many people with embankment ponds simply create a dam and flood native ground leaving plenty of brush/timber/native topsoil that is not removed and/or compacted underneath.

Thanks for any help.

This may work perfectly well in some areas. Around this part of Ohio, we have many different soils/dirt types. There are vast areas with sand and gravel deposits, some areas with nothing but solid clay, and then areas with everything in between. A good pond guy will know what you have and what is best. However, it's good for you to know this to, so somebody doesn't give you a line of bull and end up with troubles later.



Originally Posted By: BMRENN
Hello,

What I don't comprehend is; by leaving some standing timber at the bottom or a few islands... Is that a potential source of leakage (through the roots if they penetrate your clay layer into a more porous soil)?

Yes, depending on soil type. Usually the safest bet is to remove and add structure after compacted. You don't want leaking troubles at the very bottom of the pond.





Originally Posted By: BMRENN

Also when leaving an island (with trees) either just above or below final water level... Should the clay pond bottom be disked into the island topsoil and compacted to prevent sandwiching layers or leaking at that point(like the process to add soil to the top of a dam)?


You would want the pond bottom to be clay and have it come up to the shoreline of the island. This would seal off any leaks that may be under the island, but the surface of the island has to be above water. If the the water goes above the island, I would think you want to seal the whole island surface, then add whatever(topsoil, plants, etc) to the island after sealing.

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Might be matter of personal preference, but here's mine:

Islands take up valuable pond space
Islands can erode and silt in pond
Islands are hard to mow/manage despite original good intentions

I've seen a handfull of aesthetically pleasing islands that appeared to be real assets to the pond. I've seen many more that end up being overgrown and steadily eroding headaches.

Trees left on an island might die due to roots being saturated with water.
Trees left on island might compromise clay barrier with roots
Trees left on islands [willows or cottonwoods] that like wet feet will suck tons of precious pond water.

Obviously it's my personal opinion to excavate the entire pond and remove all trees and not create/leave islands. I don't like leaving trees in the main pond as I fear rotting roots may create fissure/leak issue down the road. I have fished many ponds with tons of trees left and they didn't appear to have leak issues, but with my bad luck on leaking ponds and cost associated to irrigate with my well it's my PERSONAL choice to remove all trees, install clay liner, and eliminate any potential risks.

I'm with you scratching my head on the compaction question for the entire pond. In my main pond contractors built a dam, compacted some areas, but left my flooded draws alone. I think this is a fairly common practice, but raised concerns with me like yourself: If those areas left alone [native topsoil/not compacted-worked upon] what if they are porous and result in a leak? What I can say is any new ponds I ever build or consult upon I will recommend compacting ALL areas of the pond, including the banks, to help ensure a good seal.

Again, this is just my personal opinion and what works for me specifically. If you wanted an island I would instead create a floating platform you can ferry across the pond from which to fish, swim, ect. You can hang pvc structure from beneath the dock to provide additional habitat for your fishery. Floating dock/ferry project would be very cool.


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Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57

I'm with you scratching my head on the compaction question for the entire pond. In my main pond contractors built a dam, compacted some areas, but left my flooded draws alone. I think this is a fairly common practice, but raised concerns with me like yourself: If those areas left alone [native topsoil/not compacted-worked upon] what if they are porous and result in a leak?

EXACTLY !?!?

I will look into the floating idea that intrigues me (maybe an old pontoon boat) i seem to recall the modular floating islands to be a small fortune.

Fish N Chips - good ideas thanks.


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PS.

I did not even consider the maintenance! I certainly don't want to ferry my mower/weed eater every week so I'll have to look at other ground cover choices if I do end up with an island.

Regarding the islands eroding and silting in the pond though... does it matter (from an erosion standpoint) if the island has steep (near vertical banks) or gently sloping (say 4:1) sides?


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I have a small island in my 1 acre pond as wildlife habitat and am happy with it. No maintenance.

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Pro: Less dirt to move. Nesting habitat for ducks/geese.

Con: Pond could be deeper without the island. More dirt to move. Nesting habitat for ducks/geese. Potential leak spot.


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I have a newly renovated pond with an island in the middle. It was so wet in the bottom of the pond when I cleaned it out myself could not push all the mud up and out so just ended up pushing up a small island. You could say it was by default rather than by design. It does grow up to weeds and gets no maintenance, but in my case this is not my main house pond and is in the middle of our farm so it is more of our "a- la-natural" pond so it is fine.

That is one thing our NRCS guy told us about island - how do you get there to mow or maintain??. We wanted an island in our main pond and decided against it for that reason.

The floating dock as mentioned I think would be the ticket. Not as cool looking than a well maintained island, but no swiming across to mow!

snrub

Last edited by snrub; 10/28/13 07:27 AM.

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I've got both a sunken island and trees in my big pond. The sunken island is basically the top of an old levee. It's about 30 inches under water at full pool. Makes for a great fishing area...slopes down pretty dramatically so you can almost always find fish there, somewhere on the slope. And when it's summer draw down time it's exposed, making a cool little area for birds to hang out. I like it.

Trees on the other hand I'm not nuts about. The whole north end of my East draw is full of standing timber. This was not intentional...the goal was to take out 70% of the trees and only leave a few standing. But we filled up too fast. I would recommend against leaving too much standing timber...makes fishing extremely difficult, especially for larger fish.


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It depends on your location and goals. TJ makes some good points for his location. Other wetter locations may not have the problem. We have both no islands and with islands. Both do fine. They are not house ponds so growup is not a problem. If the island is not high enough above water line and big enough to protect roots from staying wet and has dry tree species they may die. Know your facts and plan accordingly for what you want.
















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+1 on what TJ said. Previously, I had a small island on a 1A pond. It was a nesting place for geese and difficult to maintain, and made the pond look smaller...

PS the one good thing about it was that I chopped out an area in the woods about 100 yds away and hit golf balls (floating) at it.


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There's an island on the 3 acre pond. Accessed by bridge....I love fishing off of it, as the side that faces the dam provides easier access to deeper water for a shore angler.

Muskrats will make it their home however....but, I would rather trap them there, at a somewhat relaxed pace, rather than in a dead panic because they're tunneling into the dam. And it seems they would rather build dens on the island vs. the dam, so perhaps that's a benefit of sorts.



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Sprkplug, man this pond looks so great. Can you share some more photos from it? Or is there a link we can see more photos from it? That looks so inspiring.

Edit: I guess i found plenty of photos on Photobucket. Beautiful...

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This is a tiny island I decided to leave on the pond I am cleaning out for my son. Or at least it was an island till I remembered this thread and the discussions.

It really started as a single willow tree that was going to be left in about a foot of water. Figured it would eventually die and turn into fish structure. As I was digging around it to make the water in that area deeper, decided just to push dirt up against it and make an island.

Deciding it would turn into a weed patch and not be big enough to justify the time and expense to build a bridge out to it, I pushed some of the dirt back in that I had just dug out and made into a key hole shaped peninsula instead of an island. It will be small with a fairly narrow ring of water around it but the portion facing the main part of the pond is about 5'- 6' deep and should be good to fish from.

We will see how it turns out after getting the finish work done and grass growing on it. May not turn out that well, then again it might.

Edit: oops, the pic below is when it was an island. The peninsula I put back in to access it is the area to the left.

snrub

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In my area, if you core the pond you don't have to worry about sealing the rest of the pond. But I do know rolling in clay needs to be done in other areas.

I'm leaving several upright trunks in my lake. I haven't decided island or no island yet. The dam is done but I still have several thousand yards of dirt to move out of the basin.

Around here, if you scatter some brome on the island it will soon crowd the weeds out,

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We have berms just like that absent the trees. Also have underwater berms.
















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Berms/peninsula/jetty all act like a permanent dock - great place from which to fish and good use of excess clay. Consider adding riprap to prevent erosion.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Originally Posted By: Stacy
In my area, if you core the pond you don't have to worry about sealing the rest of the pond. But I do know rolling in clay needs to be done in other areas.

Around here, if you scatter some brome on the island it will soon crowd the weeds out,


Same here on sealing the pond situation unless we run into something unusual, like gravel from an old creek bed, a sandstone outcrop, etc. In our pond at home we had to go down nearly 6' in places to seal the core trench because the dam back was near an old seasonal creek and we had a lot of silted in soil as well as some gravel where the old creek had probably been at some point in time. We finally got there though. Probably would have been faster with the backhoe but we did it with the scraper. There is plenty of compacted clay in there now. On my daughters addition project was afraid of running into the same thing but hit the clay in just a couple feet so just scooped it out with the dozer and put the excavation on the back side of the dam to establish the bottom of the core.

I had not thought about Brome. Fescue is the grass of choice around here and like you said, if it establishes well it will pretty well crowd out the weeds.

Last edited by snrub; 12/08/13 06:24 PM.

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To the berms in that picture I have since added about three upside down tree stumps to that side and a couple on the other side. I think three of them were Osage Orange and one was too big for the 70 hp tractor I was using to lift so had to push it there. Was an after thought as we had cut the wood out of some trees we had cleared out of that area and the stumps just looked too enticing as cover to not put them in there. Plus I had just read part of the structure cover archives smile and looked like could not get much better cover than all those fine roots from the root balls.


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I have an island group of 1" and 2" trees with shrubbery and grass about 20' in diameter , and I wish I had more. It attracts fish around the whole island, birds love it, beavers love it, turtles , heron, it's used a lot, hope thus helps....

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Sparkplug man that bridge picture is cool


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