Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Feeding Purina Feed Choice for Bream & HSB

Ground up fish are a good source of protein in .... add your favorite type of feed here. Predator fish really like the tilapia oil in the ground up processed feed. :p BTW what happens to all those tilapia in the waste ponds we heard about -- do they glow in the dark ? A new species -- orange glow-in-the dark waste eating nile perch. :p

Gentlemen,

I'll get back to you to find out if things have changed in the cattle and poultry industry or if indeed there is a double standard.

For the life of me I can't imagine it being forbidden in fish but O.K. in cattle and poultry. But of course as we all know the government doest stranger things and yes money talks.

Well I did a little digging. Apparently up to six different hormones are allowed in beef production and in dairy operations, but it's not allowed in poultry and pigs. I do know it's not allowed in fish but as elluded to early the hormones may be washing into ecosystems from feed lots.

Well shucks! The more I learn about government the more cynical I get. Definitely not looking out for us, and there are all kinds of inconsistencies depending apparently on how much money a lobby group has.


Beefing Up on Hormones

Many other hormones are used by farmers to raise their animals faster and more efficiently. Much of the controversy surrounds beef, since hormones are given to more than 90 percent of cows in the U.S. The FDA permits six hormones to be given to livestock. Both livestock and humans naturally produce three: estradiol, testosterone and progesterone. These hormones are also reproduced from plant hormones in the laboratory. Trenbolone acetate, melengestrol acetate and zeranol are synthetic hormones used on animals.

The FDA has concluded that the amount of hormone residue in our food is negligible compared to the amount that the body produces naturally. Nevertheless, two hormones–estradiol, a type of estrogen, and progesterone–are considered probable carcinogens by the National Toxicology Program at the National Institutes of Health. Estrogen has been linked with breast cancer in women and testosterone with prostate cancer in men, while progesterone has been found to increase the growth of ovarian, breast and uterine tumors.

When it comes to animals other than cows, the situation isn’t quite as grim. According to the FDA’s National Center for Veterinary Medicine, no hormones are approved as growth promoters for chickens or pigs (zeranol is approved for fed lambs). And while farmers also use another category of hormones called estro-synchronization products, designed to make animals give birth at the same time, these are approved only for sheep and cattle and, again, not for chickens and pigs.

Dave D. wrote: "My history as a lobbyist (and bagman)on the state and federal level...."

I knew there was some reason I felt like calling you "Guvnor" Davidson!

Sunil, my popularity varied in those days. Before the "contribution", my company was avidly sought. Afterwards, nobody seemed to recognize me.

It is economic also b/c aquaculture pails in comparision to cattle and poultry. Someone has to fit the bill to get things tested prior to gov't approval. In other words if a hormone is not tested to prove it is safe for human consumption it can't be used and that process is time consuming and pricey.

Has anyone had any experience with AQUAXCELL from Cargill http://www.cargillanimalnutrition.com/aquaculture/products/dc_can_aqua_products_aquaxfish.htm This should be readily available from the local feed store/mill that carries Cargill or Nutrena feeds. I have used some pellets from Freedom Feeds intermittently , http://www.freedomfeeds.com/ . They claim their feed makes the fish taste better than some other feeds. The local fish farm uses this in their indoor trout farm and sells it as well. Their trout does taste better than the "put and take fish" stocked in Ohio lakes by the DNR. It is a little out of my way to get it so I do not use it all the time. One observation is that it seems to break down considerably faster than Gamefish Chow and some of it sinks. I am feeding it to my tilapia because it was the only pellet readily available small enough.

Hey Ryan...good to hear from ya. Without veering too far off topic, how has your geothermal heating bill stacked up?

Brettski
I'm still very happy. I had a leak a couple of months back in the closed loop. Luckily it was in the basement not underground or in the pond. The installer warranty covered it. It was a pretty easy fix. The leak developed at a bad glue job at an elbow just before the line goes throught the basement wall. It is in a cramped spot. The leak was very small. I still wish I would have gone with the pump and dump which would help keep the pond full and allow me to add aeration. Entire house electric bill runs from $80 to $120. I ran into another guy in my area with a pump and dump from the same MFG and his bill hasn't exceed $75 but his house is about 1000 sq.ft. less.

I just cut and pasted this geo-dialogue to the "Geothermal Heat Pump" thread. I gotta get outta here...this fish stuff is still way over my head.
...and now, back to your regularly scheduled program.
ta-ta

I read up on most of this thread, interesting. I currently use Purina Gamefish. I just bought a new bag but my fish slowed way down on eating. I was thinking to run out and get 15 to 20 trout for the winter. Do you think they will eat the GFC or is it not going to work for them. I was thinking doing it for a experament and also have some winter tout action, also to use up the GFC. Is there any negitives to adding trout for the winter? After reading this thread I think my naxt bag will be Aquamax or silver cup if I can find it. I do have about 15 HSB in the pond.

I'd definitely try it on them to see if they'd eat it. I'm sure it's too low in protein to be optimum trout feed, but these guys are just in for the Winter until it gets too warm next year, right? Use it up on the trout if they eat it, and make a gradual switch over to something about 40% protein as you finish off the GFC.

I currently have about 4/5 of a bag of Aquamax and 1/2 a bag of GFC that were leftover from this year in sealed containers in the basement refridgerator, for feeding to fish indoors this Winter and holdover until next Spring. I'd feed it all if I had something worthwhile in the pond to feed it to, like trout. As is, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it stays OK through the Winter (I did it last Winter with a small quantity of GFC, that seemed OK come Spring).

I've got some 45% fingerling feed double bagged in plastic garbage bags plus the original sack, then in a can with lid on. It is keeping well.
I split up my remaining GFC in plastic containers that dog goodies come in. Put saran wrap over the top before screwing the lid on tight. It is also keeping well inside the house. Had to move it from behind the lounger in family living room to a bedroom closet, though.

Theo the trout are for the winter unless they live... The pond is spring fed but the surface water got as high as 88 this year, I never took a temp at lower depths. Next year I should have a aereator going also so if the trout make it, great. Come spring if I catch them they will come out as I am sure they will be good to eat. The hatchery said I could expect a inch a month maybe a little more. We figured 10 - 12 inch fish would be best for me to get. He is giving them to me for 1 buck each. I figure if they dont do any harm, then why not maybe if there is any big bass in there that I dont know of they will also have a good meal in the spring. I will try the GFC if they dont eat it then I will go get the Aquamax and bag up the GFC and save it for spring. Off to make up a temp areator for the truck to get them home.

Storage of most fish foods including the higher protein varieties over winter is acceptable especially if the fish you are feeding it to are free roaming individuals. Always check aged food for mold. Feeding moldy food to fish is always unacceptable in my opinion. Where the rub comes with old stored food is if you are feeding it to fish that have to rely SOLELY on the food for all their dietary nutrition. Some unstable vitamins and proteins can degrade with time and in warm temps. Storing food on cool or cold temps increases the storage or shelf life. Degraded and aged food may cause dietary defficiencies in fish that do not have access to natural foods.

Hello,

We've actually killed fish with old feed. I did not follow through with a necropsy to determine a definitive cause, but the fish stopped dying as soon as we switched to fresh feed. To be safe, toss pellets if they are moldy or smell at all rancid. How long you can keep the pellets depends on humidity, temperature and type of feed. I believe a lot of the feeds with soybean or wheat based protein can withstand storage better than the high content fish meal diets, like Silvercup...I've got Koi Wheatgerm pellets that are still good after 2 years!

We keep our feed in an air conditioned dry room and try to use it up within 6 months. However, properly stored feed should still be ok after 12 months but, as mentioned above, many of the vitamins degrade, making it less nutritious. We only use 45% protein Silvercup Steelhead diet with our trout, bass & bluegill. Lesser diets are fine in recreational ponds where the fish get a healthy dose of natural food, but I wouldn't consider anything cheaper (believe it or not, there are diets much, much more expensive than Silvercup!) when the fish 50%+ rely on what you give them for nutrition.

Also, we have experienced severe problems with hyperglycemia and fatty livers with lower protein diets...the issue is that fish can not handle too many carbs...predatory fish do well on the Atkins diet! Finally, there is a water temperature issue. We've found that Bluegill and Hybrid Bluegill become more and more susceptible to the above mentioned problems as water temps drop. I usually recommend that you stop feeding pellets below about 60F when natural food is available.

I have about 40lbs of GFC that will probably go to waste, I never did get the fish to taking pellets in about 1 1/2 months of trying. I will probably feed it to the chickens if they will eat it, maybe the dogs they seem to have a interest in it everytime they get around the bag. I assume the temp is too cold now but I havent checked in awhile it was 60 something before the cold spell we have had.

Thanks for the good advice from a pro, Mike Robinson. The issue with panfish as related to low temps. is particularly eye opening.

Now, that is interesting about the fatty livers on the low protien/fat diets. I would have thought it was the other way around.

With the exception of vegetarians like carp, tilapia and some of the filter feeding crappie, all pond fish are predators. This makes me rethink some stuff.

Fish food content is a interesting topic that is not easy to state in a few sentences or general pronouncements. It all depends. Try this for a start.

North American Journal of Aquaculture 68:122–140, 2006
Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 2006
DOI: 10.1577/A05-006.1


Challenges and Opportunities in Finfish Nutrition

JESSE T. TRUSHENSKI,* CRAIG S. KASPER, AND CHRISTOPHER C. KOHLER
Fisheries and Illinois Aquaculture Center and Department of Zoology, Southern Illinois University,
Carbondale, Illinois 62901-6511, USA

Abstract.—Much of the criticism leveled at aquaculture (e.g., dependency on animal-derived feedstuffs,
nutrient-laden effluent discharges, and increased organic contamination in edible products) can be traced to
the feeds in use. Accordingly, finfish nutritionists are being challenged to formulate feeds that not only meet
the nutritional requirements of livestock but also minimize production costs, limit environmental impacts, and
enhance product quality. These challenges not only add considerable complexity to finfish nutrition but also
afford opportunities to avoid some of the mistakes made by other industries in the past. From a review of the
current status of finfish nutrition with respect to major nutrient classes, we comment on future opportunities
and promising avenues of research. Alternative protein sources, specifically those derived from marine
bycatch, plants, and microbes, are discussed, as well as methods to facilitate their implementation in finfish
feeds. Dietary lipid, its role in fish bioenergetics and physiology, and quality of aquaculture products is
reviewed with special emphasis on alternative lipid sources and finishing diets. Carbohydrates and fiber are
discussed in terms of nutrient-sparing, least-cost diet formulation and digestive physiology. Micronutrients are
reviewed in terms of current knowledge of requirements and, along with other dietary immunostimulants, are
given further consideration in a review of nutriceuticals and application in finfish feeds. The status of
nutritional research in new aquaculture species is also outlined. By integrating classical approaches with
emerging technologies, dietary formulations, and species, finfish nutritionists may identify means to increase
production efficiency and sustainability and provide for the continued success of aquaculture.
Identifying diets that meet the nutritional needs of
organisms is requisite to their successful culture.
Commercial production often evolves from high priced,
niche marketing to commodity status when
complete diets have been formulated and produced for
the target species. Profit margins are typically narrow
in animal production, particularly for maturing markets;
any method that minimizes production costs is
welcome progress (Riepe et al. 1992). Feed costs are
the largest expenditure for finfish producers, and here
lies the greatest opportunity for improvement. Formulating
diets well suited to target species will overcome
financial challenges, contributing to the long-term
sustainability of aquaculture. Moreover, diets can be
formulated to reduce effluents (Gatlin and Hardy 2002)
and dependence on resources not renewable in the
short term (i.e., fish meal). Progressive nutrition can
reduce environmental and ecological costs, as well as
the tangible price of feed. We review the current status
of finfish nutrition with respect to the major nutrient
classes, identify recurring problems, and suggest
potential solutions and promising avenues of research.
As aquaculturists, we are faced with both challenges
and opportunities; our purpose here is to provide
impetus for the development of avant-garde feeds and
feeding strategies that will allow the industry to meet
the challenges ahead and expand current opportunities
into future success.
Finfish as Unique Livestock
Finfish nutrition is limited by several constraints
associated with the aquatic environment and the
adaptations finfish have acquired to inhabit it. Diversity
in nutritional needs and limited direct interaction
between terrestrial culturists and aquatic livestock
limits feeds and feed delivery methods. These
constraints are foreign to other livestock production
industries but are prevalent throughout aquaculture
production.
Finfish have evolved to exploit virtually every
conceivable niche, feeding strategy, trophic level, and
habitat. To optimize production, however, livestock
producers attempt to simplify the complexities of the
natural environment, eschewing diversity and stochasticism
for control and predictability. The immense
variety of cultured finfish species hampers efforts to
simplify production industrywide. Approximately 170
taxa are currently cultured, including carnivores,
herbivores, planktivores, and omnivores, each posing
its own set of nutritional demands (FAO 1999). Finfish
nutrition is made exceedingly complex by the great
diversity in form and function imparted by the
variability of the natural environment.
Other aspects of aquatic life further complicate
nutrition in ways that are foreign to terrestrial livestock
* Corresponding author: saluski@siu.edu
Received February 2, 2005; accepted June 8, 2005
Published online March 21, 2006
122


Fish meal has proven to be
an excellent dietary protein source for finfish, leading
to its description as an ‘‘ideal protein.’’

The search for novel protein sources is hampered by
difficulties in determining the needs of individual
species. Finfish do not have a dietary crude protein
requirement per se, but they do require the same 10
essential amino acids (EAA) as most terrestrial
vertebrates, specifically arginine, histidine, isoleucine,
leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine,
tryptophan, and valine.

Quantitative EAA requirements are lacking for most
finfish species, and as a result, many nutritional studies focus instead on addressing crude protein requirements.
As a consequence, several protein-rich commercial
diets have been produced and applied to a broad
spectrum of finfish species, regardless of the nutritional
needs of the species.

Lipids, fatty acids, and their derivatives play a role in
virtually every physiological process that occurs in
vivo, and for this reason dietary lipid composition and
content represent a massive sector of overall nutrition.
Nowhere is this more true than in finfish nutrition
where lipid can exceed protein in the body composition
of finfish, a testament to the physiological and
energetic importance of this nutrient class (Tocher
2003). Aside from physiological importance, lipids are
indispensable energy sources, especially for finfish,
which are not well-adapted to carbohydrate utilization.
For these reasons, lipids and fatty acids have received
great interest and are perhaps the most widely
researched nutrient class in modern finfish nutrition.
Because finfish are, for the most part, intolerant of
high dietary carbohydrate content (see Carbohydrates
section below), lipids and fatty acids represent the
primary sources of metabolic energy.


Feeding
diets containing increased levels of digestible carbohydrate
resulted in increased liver size and glycogen
content in salmonids (Phillips et al. 1948; Hilton and
Atkinson 1982), and warmwater species have performed
poorly when fed diets in which glucose is the
major source of dietary energy (Wilson and Poe 1987;
Hung et al. 1989). These adverse effects are related to
the hyperglycemic state induced by increased digestible
carbohydrate availability. Carnivorous fish
fed complex carbohydrate diets exhibit prolonged
hyperglycemia similar to diabetic mammals (Shimeno
et al. 1977; Brauge et al. 1994; Wilson 1994),
followed by hepatic degeneration from glycogen
accumulation (Brauge et al. 1994).

Eric, I read that piece 4 times. It took 4 times to really digest it. I kept re-reading the statement that says we are feding the same protien diet to all fish regardless of their different nutritional needs. However, since they inhabit a common home, a balanced BG/LMB/CC BOW is going to necessitate a generic feed that will be consumed equally by the BG and CC. Lusk told me years ago to turn off the feeders a couple of days per week so the predators (almost all fish are predators) would get some natural foods.

The last area, Feeding, pretty well substantiates Mike Robinsons observations. It further proves that feeding bread and Ol Roy dog food really is harmful to the health of your fish.

I believe tilapia are the #1 farm fish in the world. I wonder what type of feed formulation they require.

Further, what are the real feed requirements for a pond fish as versus a farm fish? I expect that farm fish growth rates have been more intensely studied and some some bagged for the non farm market is sold. That's us. I like the idea of feeding Silver Cup but it is only sold by the pallet so I just go with Purina Game Fish Chow.

Trying to optimize feed composition and utilization is an extremely complex subject, so much so I'm not sure a perfect solution can ever be achieved for any situation other than a monoculture (which very few of us here will ever have in a BOW (Body of Water, DD?) bigger than a PBR). So we have to look for heuristic (good, not great) solutions to the various feeding problems.

GFC is the best feed I can just drive down the road a couple of miles and pick up anytime. And I consider it close to optimum for BG and CC. But now that I'm feeding HSB and some abherrent LMB, I want to up the protein content for them. Aquamax carnivore is really ggod for this application IMHO, but has two problems I see: 1) it costs about 60% more than GFC and 2) I have to special order it (and I doubt the local mill would sell enough to stock it full time if I bought it for 100% of my fish feed; it's not enough volume). I hate the thought of going to straight Aquamax when BG and CC will still be consuming a large portion of the feed.

So I'm probably going to try a mixture of GFC and Aquamax; now I have to try and optimize the utilization of each part by the target species in a mixed species BOW (I think I'm gonna use that acronym a lot DD - how often do you want the royalty checks? ). So far I have been considering if size difference will help with this (GFC pellets being smaller than the larger Aquamax size) and if physical placement of the feed in different areas of the pond will help (possible in my case due to hand feeding, would be possible for PM's with multiple automatic feeders as well). Any thoughts?

Dang, Theo; I didn't realize BOW wasn't on the list.

Somewhere I have a list of all of the different feed sizes, from dust to chunks, that Purina sells. It might be possible to go small enough in a specific feeder to make it not worthwhile for larger fish to feed. And conversely, for some large enough to be ignored by BG.

I mix AQMX 500 and 600 in our feeders.

Quote of DD..."Lusk told me years ago to turn off the feeders a couple of days per week so the predators (almost all fish are predators) would get some natural foods." I would like to do that. Is there a feeder controller that allows you to set up for skip a day?