Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Feeding Feeding with more protein, but less feed

Kevinlp,
Here is a previous post about bread that might be helpful.
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000087. It the post doesn't show up run bread in the seach feature under the topic feeding.

kevinlp,

I don't know if you could get to the post that Rad provided or not (I can't)...and I don't know what it said, but bread does not provide the necessary protein for fish growth. It is just basically a filler.

Many have reported on here that it has taken their BG a good while to take to the pellets. In my experience, they readily take the pellets. Be patient and they will learn. I notice the small ones commonly spit out the pellets for whatever reason, too large, too hard, etc. but they eventually consume them.

Bread is not a substitute for pellets...if you are feeding for growth. If you are feeding so that you can catch more fish (under the theory that a full fish is more catchable than one not so full as stated in this thread), then I have no idea if bread works or not for that purpose.

I couldn't get that link to work either.

Meadowlark,
I asked a question I guess you missed so here it is again: ;)

Ther have been posts about fish just not eating certain brands of food. Mine will eat anything.

;) [/QUOTE]

Ric,

I'm sorry I missed your question and its a very good one. I thank you for asking it. I was just too caught up in the discussion and somewhat stunned at the response that full fish hit lures better than not so full fish, all other things being equal.

For the most part, my LMB do not eat pellets, only on occasion and really not that often. They are, however, lined up at the feeders to eat BG, not pellets. They litterally feast on the clouds of small BG that are feeding on pellets. I see it at every feeding. I have fed small amounts by hand and seen it happen right in front of my eyes. I don't want lazy LMB that simply lay in wait for the BG to expose its tender underbelly when feeding. I want sort of hungry LMB that have to earn their keep and food by attacking healthy prey in a natural manner.

I'm kind of old fashioned, I guess. I want an aggressive LMB that does not have a sure thing every 7,12, and 7 o'clock. Tilapia really help.

I hope to achieve a balanced pond, without chemicals of any kind, and without any artificial feeding of any kind. I'm running an experiment this year in a pond I call "Walden" in which that is the rule of engagement. Tilapia are the key ingredient in making this dream a possibility. They eat algae and in turn feed the LMB with their numerous offspring. I call it feeding algae to LMB.

I didn't happen on this without thinking about it for a long time. It may not work, but every indication 6 months into the experiment is that it is working spectacularly. We will see in another year.

Again, thank you for the question and for considering my logic. Also, thank you for the kind words. If you have any other question, I would be most happy to try to answer if I can. I learn from questions and suspect that others do also and this Forum is about learning, for me. Thanks.

Ric,

p.s. I would appreciate your comments and anyone else's on the above answer, either positive or negative comments are welcome.

In the pond where I'm experimenting, I've observed LMB chasing young fish to the dirt, the bank, to try to catch them. I see them actually going airborne to catch their food. I haven't seen that in a long time and never see it in my pond with the feeders, never. I'm encouraged that the F1 LMB may indeed be a more aggressive fish. I'm also continuing to believe that artificial feeding does not promote aggressive LMB.

The F1's that were 4 inches in spring now look to be 8 to 10 inches...but no fishing allowed so I can't tell for sure. Thanks.

On the topic of will more protein and less food raise bigger fish cheaper. I would like to add that the effect of higher or lower protein would also depend on the species of fish. Take ML's talapia that are eating algae but growing though that is not a source substantially high in protein. If ML ran out of algae and fed bread the tilapia would probably still grow quicker with the additional food source, though low in protein. Now the purpose of the Tilapia is to grow and provide a high protein source for the LMB in ML's experimental pond. So would higher protein and less food be as effective would depend on the targeted species and subsequent purpose. Many fish have the characteristics of land animals ie. dogs need protein to grow but cows can grow on grass, the point being the benefit of higher protein may depend on the purpose of the feeding program.

A portion of that answer comes from whether or not the fish of which we speak is a predator (carnivore) or not (herbivore/omnivore).

If a fish is normally designated as a predator, it stands to reason that that fish will grow faster on a diet high in protein.

If a plant eater (tilapia) then perhaps they don't need the protein..similar to cattle, which need some protein, but can get by on starches/carbohydrates.

Matt, that's a really interesting bit of speculation. Keep in mind that fish that aren't considered top end predators in a pond are still carnivores. Sunfish, bluegill etc. eat live organisms, albeit small, all day. They are still in effect predators. I'd like to know if tilapia diets are higher in carbs and starches.

Try this link
http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/alt-ag/tilapia.htm
I know this had been hashed and rehashed but to just throw less food that contains more protein is not an effect way to raise larger fish. The younger fish that need the elevated protein levels are going to be shut out by the larger fish. More protein cost more money so there would probably not be a cost savings either. Here, a bag of 32% protein costs $1 more than 30%. Then there is the question of what kind of protein are you throwing, fish, mammal or vegetable? Do you feed once a day, younger fish probably need to eat more often than older fish. I think the question is to broad for a definitive answer.

ML,
I agree with your response & as I said aspire to the same self sustaining fishery.

My question was somewhat pointed in that your bass though not full on pellets should have ample oportunity to fill themselves on tilapia.
Therefore if it is true a "full" fish isn't as aggresive your bass should also be difficult to catch.

I don't believe this will be the case.

I still agree with Greg's statement that bigger fish are more aggresive.
I further believe that once fish are stimulated into feeding, whether by pellets or the avalibility of lots of forage fish, they are easier to catch because they are more aggressive.

Ric,

Maybe I didn't explain myself or hypothesis adequately. A LMB that has to catch its food naturally will be more aggressive than a LMB that can just sit back and pick off BG at the feeders. A LMB accoustomed to "gathering" food rather than having it served up to it, will be more likely to chase artificial lures/flies. Thats my hypothesis, that I'm testing out in a pond entirely without feeders.

I believe I will be trading LMB top-end size for aggressiveness. My interest is in having 4 to 8 pound LMB, that can be caught, rather than 8 to 10 pound LMB that can be observed. Hope this helps explain my thinking, which I'll be the first to admit may be completely screwed up.

But I'll say this again, in that Pond, I'm seeing very aggressive LMB behavior, very aggressive. Time will tell, but its fun even if it fails. Thanks for responding.

I have a different observation to offer. For those that remember, I have reason to believe that poachers had hit my pond pretty heavily. I had seen virtually no LMB activity. Then, I added about a dozen or so 6 to 10 inchers from a neighbors bass heavy 1/3 acre pond. You could literally catch one on every cast. After a couple of weeks, it has lit up the place. Once again, I have bass feeding on BG when I feed. Although I understand that nobody is going to catch every fish of any species from any water hole, I believe I had a bass shortage or they were so hook shy that they wouldn't show themselves even though opportunity was always there. The added fish had never had an easy life or even a really square meal. They are agressive. My Grandson and I trapped some small bluegill yesterday to try for catfish. Couldn't keep the bass off but couldn't land any.

So, I have a different scenario than Greg or ML. These fish have always had to hustle for a living and are now in a place where living is easy. And yet, they are still agressive. Time will tell.

Sounds like your situation validated ML's theory, keep them lean and mean and they will bite. He was giving examples of how the bass ran the bait fish to ground in his test pond.

Rad,

Yes, as some say..."now thats what I'm talking about"

Dave my point is that I think full or empty bell is not main factor in catching them. Makes sense to me that skinny bass now have food so they go for it.

M-L answer me this do you think pellet trained bass are more or less agressive? I know from my experience the answer but curious your thoughts on this.

Greg,

Aggressive in what sense? The aggressive trait I want is the aggressiveness to take lures/flies, not pellets.

A LMB trained on pellets is likely to be more aggressive at taking pellets than most other fish, but I'm not interested in fishing with pellets for LMB....HSB are a far better choice in that regard. They grow faster, are better tasting, better fighting, never overpopulate, etc.

There is no doubt in my mind that LMB on feeders are less aggressive at taking lures/flies than those that are not provided with feeders, other things being equal.

With all due respect, I know of no creature in nature that feeds more aggressively when full (or provided handouts) than those that have to earn every meal...applies to all creatures that I have encountered.

Show me some data that says I'm wrong...that shows LMB hit artificial lures/flies better if feed pellets than otherwise. My experience overwhelmingly says otherwise.

Okay, If I want to grow large cows, I feed them all they will eat...if I want to grow large bass, I feed them all they can eat. Yes, agree.

The question is, if I want to catch large bass consistently, are my chances better or worse, if they are fed handouts to satiation vs natural approach, all other things being equal?

I'm not after the record LMB in my ponds. I am after aggressiveness, not fat and lazy. I fish my ponds, regularly. Not infrequently. I would much rather catch 4 to 8 pound bass with consistency than observe 8 to 10 pound bass hanging around the feeders. Depends on your objectives.

M-L take this how you will. This goes back to my core point and why I'm super busy but want to take the time to write. I don't know why but I seem to care about the avg pon owner on this site.

A FED TRAINED BASS WILL HIT A FLY/LURE 10X's better than a regular bass. Part of it is genetics I'm sure. If they will hit something that normally they would not hit that is lying on the water still then they will hit a lure.

Not sure what else to tell you. I hope you know I provide what I think is ture. Hard proof? You can go to some of my private fishing clubs if you want to pay for it. This as close to fact as it gets. I do not mean this with disrespect but if you disagree with this I guess you know more than many biologist and hatcheries that produce these fish mainly for the purpose of being more agressive. I pay big money for fed trained bass for this reason. I stock them in lakes for fly fishing b/c they want an agressive fish and they get it.

On your other post. Most of my clients want like you to catch several 4-5 lb bass instead of a few 8-10 lb bass. Guess what they all have feeders going to maximize growth. They also seem to catch them pretty well. Another point is that if your visibility in the pond is greater than 24 inches (because I know you do not like fertilizing) during the summer and your not feeding the total carrying capapcity is much lower than it could be in the pond. How many 4-5 lb bass do you expect to grow in the 3.5 acre pond?

I'm interested in how the bass respond to you stopping the feeding it might help. However I'm more concerned that folks reading your comments will stop feeding and in reality I know for a fact end up putting less food on the table for the bass.

10x better...that's a bunch Greg. So, by my simple math, if I stop feeding in the one pond, my catch rate will fall by a factor of 10 and in the pond I'm not feeding it will increase by a factor of 10 if I start feeding. Sorry, I don't buy it...my experience says otherwise.

I typically catch 15 to 20 native bass in a 2 hour session in the pond without feeders (that's only a 3/4 acre pond), then I would catch 150 to 200 bass with feeders (or with feed trained bass). Hmmm, don't think so. Or maybe catch 15 to 20 bass in 12 minutes instead of 2 hours, no don't accept that either.

Likewise, if I stopped feeding in the 3.5 acre pond, then the 2 bass I catch in two hours would only be .2 of a bass...in other words, I'd catch nothing. That’s probably more likely, but I don't buy that either.

My participation on the Forum is to learn and share my experiences to help others. There is no financial connection or conflict of interest at all derived from pond stuff. It’s just my passion.

I do wish to help anyone to not make the same mistakes I have made...and I consider stocking Florida strain bass with feeders in a small pond with fishing pressure and catch and release to be the number one mistake I have made and fertilizers to be the number two biggest mistake I have made.

With the advent of the F1’s and the success I’ve had with Tilapia, I believe there is an opportunity to do things better in my ponds. I’m trying that combo out in a newly renovated 2 acre pond. Maybe I will fail miserably. Maybe I will return in that pond to chemicals to fertilize, and then chemicals to kill the stuff the fertilizer created, and then chemicals to remove the dead matter, and so on.

Maybe I will have to feed for 15 minutes or satiation in order to be able to catch any bass. Somehow, I don’t think so. Time will tell. One thing I promise, whatever happens, I will report my experiences here honestly and without any bias whatsoever. If I fail, I will be the first to admit it and write about it.

We always say on this Forum, “it depends on your objectives”. My objectives are to be chemical free, self sustaining, and have a reliable consistent fishery. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I agree with Greg. My pond was stocked last fall with 200 2-4 inch native LMB. I feed Aquamax 500 2 times a day. Saturday evening about 2 hours before feeding time, I was trying to retrieve a float from about 25 feet out in the water close to my feeder. I was using another float with a bare hook. It took about a dozen cast to get it back in. In the process I caught 2 bass about 7-8 inches long. Maybe it will change when they get to a couple of pounds. Maybe then I'll have to bait the hook!

Greg,
Before we leave this thread and if you have time, are the ponds you speak of, pellet only, no forage fish?

David Cagle,

Try that same tactic after feeding to satiation. That is what I was addressing, that was the question...does a full LMB hit lures/flies better than a not so full LMB, all other things being equal? Greg said yes, because they have better energy, I say no.

Just before the feeders go off is prime time. The fish are conditioned to eat. So, if you turned off the feeders completely (which I'm not advising) you would experience more aggressive fish. If I have guests coming, turn off the feeders and the fishing is far better. It amazes me that this is even questioned.

Report again in a couple of years when those bass are larger. I'd be very interested in what tactics you are using then.

This thread, for me, is about finding the right balance in feeding. How much protein for growth and how much free food and still have aggressive fish? I submit you can overfeed for growth and sacrifice aggressiveness in the process...if thats what you want, go for it.

M-L I too like to tell it how it is. I do not take comments on here personally until now. It really upsets me to see your last remarks. You seem to suggest I make suggestions based on profits, etc. Are you kidding, you think I make money from taking the itme to post on this site. Occasional fish feder sell, but please. The fact you think that hacks me off. Heck I even emailed you a relative weight spreadsheet for free.

You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine. I work about 60-80 hrs a week and read these post for fun and sometimes I learn some things. However if I see something that I think is worng and will harm a pondowner reading it I will post. That is why I take the time. So you think I'm not passionate?

SO harp on the 10 x's commnet and be a smart you know what about it. Nice math, impressive. A better anology is that a fed trained bass might hit 10 mins after being caught instead of 2 hrs later b/c it is more agressive. Maybe you do not understand the art or the science of pond mgmt. Heck even after being upset here I agree with one of your above statemetns about turning off feeder for a few days, that might work. The bass are agressive though b/c they were trained to hit a non living thing. How do you not get that?

Your ending statement above tells me you just do not get it but I hope others do and maybe some day you will. You wrote "I submit you can overfeed for growth and sacrifice aggressiveness in the process." Actually no you do not have to sacrifice growth for agressiveness. Try your experiment fine but I can tell folks also to not turn off their feeders and follow what I think is bad advice. I try to help FOR FREE on what others had to learn by spending money with me.
I will not post on this thread anymore I have made my point I hope.

Rad,
I do not have a single client's pond with just fed-trained bass with no forage. The growth to me is not that great with just pellets. Sometimes they even lose the passion for pellets after being in the pond for awhile. However they always seem to be easier to catch than regualr bass.

David that is good to hear, just do not overfish the pond that is one of the keys to lowering fishing success.

Greg,

Nothing personal was meant at all and I'm sorry you took it that way. I said nothing about you or anyone else, only myself, to explain that I'm just a pond owner who is trying to find the best fit for his ponds...no other motives, no hidden agenda.

We should be able to disagree without any personal implications and I'm sorry you read my post that way. I appreciate reading your views, but just because I don't always agree with them, does not make for anything personal.

Heck, it appears that no one agrees with me on this question, but I don't take that personal and I hope you won't either.