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#342416 07/05/13 10:51 PM
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had a new pond constructed a year ago, it was built in sandy soil so it has a two foot clay liner. Due to drought, the pond did not fill before winter. with plenty of water this spring, the pond was within 15 inches of full but loses 1/4 inch per day. No big deal as a new pond has to saturate. The water has now dropped back to the pool dpth of last winter. It will come up after a rain but drops 1/4 inch per day, it doesnt gain any ground, so to speak, like it should.
I was thinking about why it drops back to the level it held over winter and have come up with a theory. I believe that the freeze thaw cycles through the winter has broken up the compacted liner where there was no standing water. I noticed this spring when the liner was dry around the edges that it was very loose to several inches at least, which is what led me to this theory.
My question is: does this seem to be a viable theory? The pond builder has denied that this is happening and does not believe that the liner he formed could in any way leak. He is a very capable pond builder and has dug hundreds of ponds. I am not questioning his work in any way. Can anyone offer suggestions?

Jeff Moore #342419 07/06/13 12:02 AM
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Our pond did basically the same thing. I was told to not get to worried about it and it should be OK in a couple years. It was wicking and finally we have a full pond with very little drop between rains. Our pond builder happen to stop by a week ago and said it was a common thing in our area for a pond to drop due to the banks wicking. The pond is doing just fine now. The fish are happy and eating food like crazy. The pond is less then a 1/4 acre. Maybe your pond is wicking and hopefully it will be OK.


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Jeff Moore #342421 07/06/13 12:56 AM
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Does the pond have a dam? What's the builders explaination?

1/4" is a little higher than what I would call normal but not alarming, to me anyways, I prolly lost 3' to evaporation last summer..


I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

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Jeff Moore #342914 07/09/13 06:50 PM
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Thanks for the encouragement guys, I know there will be less wicking when there is more water in it. I am hoping this is all it is. I do have the opportunity to pump from a creek which is what I will be doing since the rains have been insufficient.
The pond does not have a dam, it is built over a buried valley aquifer hence the need for the clay liner. The builder feels that the pond needs to fill completely to saturate the liner, he does not see a problem at this point. Until the pond has filled he cannot make any determinations.

Jeff Moore #343116 07/10/13 05:46 PM
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I don't know about evap. in your area, but down here we can lose as much as an inch a day in the heat of the summer. Thankfully, we've had a tropical spring this year. My pond has maintained almost full pool so far, knock on wood, for the first time since I was a kid, or so I've been told. This is the fullest that I've seen since I've been back these past few years. I hope that it works out for you, and at least you have the option of pumping from a near by stream. Around here,if you get caught using a pump for any reason, the water police will come and get you.


Orbis Non Sufficit
>")))><
Jeff Moore #343222 07/11/13 02:01 PM
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No problem with water police yet as water is abundant, I also sit on a highly charged aquifer that with municipal type pumps is capable of up to 1000 gal/min. We hit water at 10 feet dpth and had to patch quick. With 2 feet of clay an 8 ft max dpth is all that could be achieved. I also have in mind digging a well. At 15-20 foot dpth is more water than I can ever use. This will eventually be the fix to having to set up a pump. Not all is lost, I have options but I do want to be sure I have a well sealed liner. Thanks for the encouraging words.

taz1313 #343224 07/11/13 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: taz1313
I don't know about evap. in your area, but down here we can lose as much as an inch a day in the heat of the summer. Thankfully, we've had a tropical spring this year. My pond has maintained almost full pool so far, knock on wood, for the first time since I was a kid, or so I've been told. This is the fullest that I've seen since I've been back these past few years. I hope that it works out for you, and at least you have the option of pumping from a near by stream. Around here,if you get caught using a pump for any reason, the water police will come and get you.


Yeah taz I am with you on the evap! I bet I lose at least a 1/4 inch a day due to evap! I can get brutal around here in the summer!!

RC

Last edited by RC51; 07/11/13 02:11 PM.

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Jeff Moore #359031 12/04/13 07:19 PM
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Well, I am convinced of a leak. I have lost 1/4 inch daily under all circumstances throughout the year, a little more through the summer. I would preferably want to re compact the pond before doing the well just to make sure all is done correctly and the pond is "whole". I am looking to rent a sheepsfoot but not sure which size is needed.
I have a few questions for anyone that will want to answer. What is centrifugal force, what is gradeability, how heavy do i need the roller to be? What do i consider in order to choose the proper equipment?
Any help is appreciated

Jeff Moore #361100 12/26/13 11:42 PM
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Once again, it has been 1.5 years and not a full pond. watched it come up as much as 6 inches in a rain event only to watch it drain approx 1/4 inch daily. It has never reached a static point but continued to drop each and every day regardless of conditions. Well, we just had the largest rain event since construction in which the pond has filled to overflowing. In 4 days it has dropped 8-10 inches so a leak is a definite at this point. My original theory (read the entire post)I am now going to question in this way, If it was due to decompacted clay, would it leak this fast? I thought that decompacted clay was the cause but I now believe it to have a distinct leak as the extra pressure is pushing it through the leak spot. I was losing 1/4 a day when the pond was 2/3 full by level. It seems to me that the liner should offer more resistance even when full unless there was a seem somewhere.
I have approached the builder for advice on how to fix it but through what became a heated conversation would never tell me what to do to fix it. I am guessing he knows that it is not easily fixed.
A sinkhole did form at the edge of the pond after the first rainfall which I believe is due to workmanship and now leads me to believe that there could be problems with the liner. The pond was built in a bad drought and he did have trouble with getting moist clay, was it moist enough? maybe not. He told me that he designed the sinkhole to be there but I knew that was crap, why would you have a hole at the edge big enough that I could lie in it and I am 6ft 240lbs. looking back I think he was covering and may have known then that there are potentially big problems. None the less, I have not done any calculations as to how many gallons per minute to keep up with 2 inches per day at 1/3 acre full but I am not sure this is any more than a bandaid any way.
If anyone can comment on any of this I would appreciate it, I need much encouragement as I am getting no service after the sale that I was promised, he actually blamed me for not filling the pond myself after completion (he is blaming me for the liner being exposed too long even though he made no requirement for me to do so, in essence, blaming me for the whole situation). I cleared a very beautiful section of my property which was also hard for the kids as they loved the woods and wildlife and I promised them this would be really nice, It is now a nightmare because I really think the builder believes it is not fixable as I asked over and over what needs to be done to fix it right and all he would tell me is to run a pump contiuously

Last edited by Jeff Moore; 12/26/13 11:51 PM. Reason: clarification
Jeff Moore #361103 12/27/13 07:53 AM
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If you had a sinkhole in one spot, it is possible there are more you cannot see. I would bet the problems did result from dry construction leading to poor compaction.

I am no expert, but I think it should be fixable if you are willing to drain it. You need to find the leaks and or re work the lining with proper moisture. Maybe bring in more clay as needed.
Pay once for a good fix, or pay to pump forever.

As for the builder, that doesn't sound good. Depending on any agreements on paper, it may be time to call a lawyer if the fix expense is high.

Jeff Moore #361115 12/27/13 10:36 AM
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Sorry to hear of this. Man I know how this sitution feels for sure. You spend all that money and dream yet you never get to enjoy. Sounds like your contractor might be related to mine. Awful feeling! If I ever move and build a new pond I'm just going to fly Mike Otto in if would be willing.


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RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.
Jeff Moore #361122 12/27/13 11:20 AM
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Thanks Gentlemen, I will work with soil and water and another reputable builder to figure out what needs done, I will keep you posted.

Jeff Moore #361132 12/27/13 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jeff Moore
No problem with water police yet as water is abundant, I also sit on a highly charged aquifer that with municipal type pumps is capable of up to 1000 gal/min. We hit water at 10 feet dpth and had to patch quick. With 2 feet of clay an 8 ft max dpth is all that could be achieved. I also have in mind digging a well. At 15-20 foot dpth is more water than I can ever use. This will eventually be the fix to having to set up a pump. Not all is lost, I have options but I do want to be sure I have a well sealed liner. Thanks for the encouraging words.


IF you going to dig a well you may wont to look into what will qualify as agricultural power use. I have my well (500+ GPM) on a stand alone agriculture power meter. The cost of running my well is about 35% less than on a residential meter. Plus there is no monthly charge if I do not run the well at all. Also as a side note I am right over easy access water like you. Since the water is right at the surface and I have very little head pressure my well pump yields between 3 to 4 times its GPM output rating.
Edit
Here is a link to what I spent keeping my 3ac water hole that has very little rain runoff watershed full. I often lose an inch per day in the summer heat here.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=27779&Number=355269#Post355269


Last edited by Tums; 12/27/13 12:43 PM.
Tums #361139 12/27/13 01:59 PM
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wow, thanks so much. soil and water will be out next week to add their input. They also concur with the ability of a well to produce plenty of water. I dont know much about wells and what size they need to be. How deep did you go and what size well?

Jeff Moore #361143 12/27/13 03:15 PM
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Jeff, I have an 8" well drilled 220' deep with a 10hp pump motor. My pump is not at the bottom of the well since I have so much water. To give you an idea of water supply here there are artesian wells around a 1/4 miles from my well. I built this 3 acre pond on sandy soil with probably less than 10 acres of forested water shed and 2 acres of grass land water shed. I built a house on the property and piped my house runoff water to the pond. Pond in its deepest area is around 22'. The well is around 100' upland of the pond. BTW I estimate a well like I had dug will be near 15k in cost today. I hade it done for about half that.

EDIT:
Also you check for a tax break for digging a high volume well. Here right now the state will allow you to deduct the cost of you tax responsibility for an agriculture well. A 15k well here would get you about a $750 tax refund / break

Last edited by Tums; 12/27/13 03:19 PM.
Tums #361144 12/27/13 03:31 PM
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thanks for that info, that is really fascinating that you can supply that large of a BOW. have a great new year if we dont happen to post in the meantime

Jeff Moore #361148 12/27/13 04:05 PM
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Your Welcome, Have a happy new year.


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