Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Building a lake without a watershed?

I am kinda partial to Mathcad myself. They both are really cool programs.

PTC recently released a free version of Mathcad. A number of advanced features are disabled, but I doubt the vast majority of people would use them.

My last upgrade was in 2008, and none of the hundreds of apps I have written over the past 23 years will import into the free version. They need to be converted with the latest full version, which I am not going to get.

If the default windows scientific calculator is over your head, then you defiantly don't even want to be messing around with the free version, unless you like math

evap calculator here http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/evaporation-water-surface-d_690.html

Excellent calculator page. However, evap is just one of the three primary. You got leeching/hydrological flow (extremely important if the pond/lake is not properly sealed from below the water's surface), and transevaporative process by plants (which is minimal but still need to be considered)

Ok bringing this thread back to the top. Lake is built. Just under 2 acres and has maximum depth of 18'. I have not personally seen it yet but am going down to the ranch tomorrow. I do have a picture albeit not a great one and cant figure out how to post it as more than an attachment. Plenty of questions.

#1I have read where freshly cut oak trees can prove toxic to the water. There are no oaks but are plenty of large bull mesquites. I would really like to cut several of these and drag them to primary spots. Will that be an issue?

#2 There are no rocks whatsoever on the place so what would be the best/cheapest type of rock to put in the lake. I can't imagine trying to haul enough big rocks 300 miles on a 16' flatbed. Seems like it might take more in gas than a load of cheap rock delivered?

#3. There is plenty of sand available but it is very fine beach like sand. Would I be better off getting a load of pea gravel for a spawning area?

I am sure I have created more questions for myself but it is a start.

1. Oak is toxic, to a certain level, yes. Bull mesquite, no. Go nuts.

2. Got local quarries? Streams? Plenty of those 1/2 to 1 ton boulders will decorate nicely. Otherwise, river rocks.

3. Pea gravel is great. 1/4" and 1/8" river rocks are perfect.

I like using pans to do alot of the dirt moving and shaping. Looks sweEt

Thanks. Lots of mesquite so that is good. No quarries anywhere near this place nor any streams of any type. Lots of beachfront close by!

I know a lot of areas in Texas have low alkalinity waters. If you can find limestone, use that in the pond. Anything that will bring up the alkalinity will help.

There's a great thread in the archives on structure/cover for fish. Take a look at it if you haven't done so already.

Wow, great looking pond! Is that sand all over the bottom or clay? Hard to tell.

If you have boulders available, I would order a variety of sizes and a few loads. As mentioned, limestone would be beneficial. Then rent/hire a skid-steer to place them around the pond basin making huts, cavities, and caves (aka Love shacks). They should become excellent places to dangle a hook.

I didn't have the ability to move stones larger than 2' without a skid-steer, but of the "love shacks" I made, the fish are always around them or in them. I built one that had about a 5cu ft interior with my son that wound-up being about 12' under. I snorkel down to it and find perch in there all the time staring back at me. They love it! The FHM on the other hand used to think it was theirs, not the best home for them any more.

That is clay. We have about 3-5' of sand on top and then clay down to at least 23'. I know rocks will be my best bet but the expense of them may be an issue! It is a long way for shipment and the cost of delivery is what will get us. I've got plenty of tires and pallets so that may have to suffice.

What about cedar posts tied together in a teepee like setup? Would that work? Have access to unlimited cedar here in the hill country of Texas.

Do you have any access to broken-up concrete like old foundations and sidewalks? You may find someone just aching for a place to dump that stuff. The tough part is cutting out the rebar and manhandling the chunks around.

I am trying to get some concrete from a road construction site the county is doing. Not sure how that will work. I did get to see the lake this weekend and it has lots of deep water. There are plenty of contour changes but obviously no structure whatsoever. Nor is there any drastic depth changes like sheer drop offs. Will that be a problem?

The plan for structure is to utilize the numerous large dead mesquite trees that are all over the ranch. First question is, will they float and if so how should I anchor them? I'm thinking of trying to get a bunch of concrete culverts from the same road project? Will they be toxic if they are older?

Another thought I had was for the real deep water and Vertical structure like standing timber. For my tree trunk, i am thinking of putting a t post in the bottom of the lake and putting a 4-6", 10' tall PVC pipe over it with a 1/2 bag of sacrete down inside for stability. Then I can drill holes, actually pre-drilled, for 1" PVC pipes going thru at various depths and directions to create the "limbs" of the tree. In addition , I thought of bending small sections of cattle panels over my "limbs" for more structure. Thinking of doing these in 3-4 clusters throughout the bottom of the deepest part of the lake. Am I crazy?

1. Just a mindful thing you need to know about concrete, where other in the construction industry may hammer me on this..don't shoot the scientist. Concrete, depending on what it's used for previous before it may have been recycled and reused as base material, can contain excess heavy metals, as well as unknown trapped pollutants from the activities (and/or soils) that you may not be aware of as you salvaged it for usages. That then get introduced into your pond. The concentration of the pollutants and metals may not be high to be alarmed about, but I don't know how long the concrete materials have been supporting the roadways, leeching and absorbing. Definitely your call. Concrete will bring the pH up. Those who make concrete pipes, as well as inert landfill owners, claim that cured concrete will not bring pH down or raise pH up. Beg to differ. Plenty of enforcement lawsuits I have involved over the years that prove otherwise.

2. Mesquite tree indeed will float like a log, if it's dead and has been bone dried for a long while. Over time, as the water seeps into the body, and the wood undergoes decomposition, it will remain sunken. You won't know how much weight to use to anchor it down unless you do a trial run on the buoyancy level of the dead mesquite. You may need a 1/2 top of weight to hold it down, or you may only need a pebble. Can't tell until there's water. If you require to anchor them is not to compromise your pond's bottom lining. Just weight on both sides, and lots and lots of ropes, or chains (for added weight).

3. As for the concrete culvert, same as #1,but in this case, what type of water have been going through the culverts? Low flow rate is worst than fast, since pollutants have more time to adhere to the porous surface/subsurface of the culverts over time.

4. For the vertical structures, you got something going there. Indeed you're crazy, but in a good way. I'll hand this to the pond's engineers and the experienced pond masters.

Leo, I think that is a very good point in regards to #1. I put concrete along my edge for 50-100'. Never thought that it may have soaked up bad stuff. Nothing noticeably bad on my part, but who knows. I think in a past thread, there was something along these lines in regards to recycled pallets too. There is definitely a higher PH next to that concrete area, but soon goes down just a little bit away.

Thanks Leo. I definitely would prefer natural rock vs. concrete but dang it's just not much of an option down here by the beach! I believe the biggest issue will be trying to get "clean" concrete as opposed to that which has say pavement with it.

I guess with the mesquite trees the only thing I really need to do so keep them from all floating to the same end. I believe a t post and wire will do that. My plan was to put them in the intermediate depths of six to eight foot and then do the deeper portion of the lake with my vertical artificial trees.

Billy, if you're willing to risk it using the concrete, it's not a problem. Just be aware of where the concrete has been. Make sure to be extremely mindful of the pH level for the first 5 years. Yep, 5 years. If the concrete get soaked for that long, pH will stabilize out. If the concrete don't get submerged, try 20 years for more.

The best type of concrete to use is damaged and broken concrete materials from the local plants. Do not use any colored concreted. Just plain straight up gray, or the base color of the sand and aggregates that the concrete bonded to.

Make sure to get porous concrete, and not the sealed. The porous have a greater chance to leech out the pollutant on first flush (using garden hose), before introducing into your pond. Sealed concreted may have smaller pores, but the pollutants are trapped at much greater level due to large bonding surfaces within the smaller pores.

Ok one other issue I worry about is disturbing the integrity of the clay bottom. Will the T posts be a threat to creating a leak if the clay is, say only a foot deeper than the bottom? Am I worrying about nothing?

If the bottom under the clay is porous, I wouldn't take the chance of disturbing the clay liner. I'd use cover that had a wide base to support it's vertical height.

Something like this:



If you want it taller, they can be stacked 2 high.

Man I like that. What are the "limbs" made out of? I think my Ida of PVC trees will work if instead of using a t post in the ground, I use a five gallon bucket as a base.

Bill, if you use a bucket, poke holes in the bottom. Then stick a couple of pieces of rebar through before filling with concrete. That should keep it from tipping over.

Yep that will work. Thanks.

OK not sure why I can only upload an attachment and not a picture but here is the first run of my pvc tree. Believe it or not, I am on a budget! Will this work in the deeper water?

The picture has to be hosted on an on-line site, not from your computer, such as Photobucket or anohter on-line website. There's a tutorial in the archives on how to do it.

Nice looking pond!!

Ok got a lot done this weekend. I was amazed at how big of trees we were able to get on the trailer and into the lake. It started raining yesterday so we did not get the PVC trees in. Next time plus still need to add rock. I was also able to get six culverts and put them in. Ok I'll try to upload pics again from my flicker account this time. Maybe it will work.