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#27269 06/21/07 04:07 PM
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I live Huntsville, Texas, and have a 26 acre lake located about 15 miles from here. I’m lucky that the University here, SHSU, does water sampling. I recently had two separate tests taken for both Alkalinity and PH. I’m showing an Alkalinity reading of 17.1 to 17.2, and a PH range around 6.9.

I plan to add in some Ag. Lime and get my Alkalinity up over 20 ppm, with a preferred end result of my lake having Alkalinity levels at 28 ppm, or in excess of that. The price I am getting is about $45/ton, which includes both delivery and application, or spreading of the lime into the lake and onto its shoreline.

My questions are the following, how many tons per acre should I need? (Some of the scholars here seem to think 4 tons per acre is optimal, but could I get away with 2 tons per acre?) Secondly, is the $45 to $40 per ton a fair price, or does it seem a little high? Keep in mind that the price also includes both delivery and application of the lime.) A final question might be what would be the difference in having my alkalinity slightly raised above it’s current level versus having it brought up to around 28 or 32 ppm? Just how bad is a reading of 17.18? Thanks in advance. This forum is addicting.

#27270 06/21/07 09:35 PM
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I have no idea about your question's but just wanted to say Howdy neighbor!! and give you a bump up on your posting!!!


#27271 06/21/07 10:07 PM
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Ag lime does not work all at once . It takes effect over time in a curve. For example it may go from 17 to 25 over 4 mths and stay there for a year and start a slow fall over 2 years. The amount you put in determines not only how high it goes but also how long it stays up. With 4 tons vs. 2 tons it may stay above 20 for an extra year.

One way to use lime is to put it in series like 2 tons now and another ton in a year and then add as needed to keep it above 20.

Do you intend to use a fertilizer program if needed. You may not need one and if not then excess lime is not as important.
















#27272 06/22/07 08:42 AM
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Tim, there are quite a few of us East Texas boys on here. I've seen a few folks from Conroe, Cleveland, and even Cold Spring. Pretty cool deal. We may even be the majority.

Ewest, thank you for the intelligent response. I haven't read enough about fertilization to make a call on it. I also have visibility in my lake sitting right at 18". We also raise cattle out there, and do some fertilizing anyway. I think you were the author of a couple of posts on here denouncing, somewhat, the benefits of fertilization; stating that it could be a bad idea, i.e. devestating consequences--fish kill. Right now, I just want to enhance production by getting my alkalinity up to acceptable levels (in the high 20's) and then feeding my bluegill heavily. I had really good results in the past with doing just those two things. Maybe fertilization takes me to another level, I just don't know.

#27273 06/22/07 09:11 AM
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Fertilization of ponds is a tool to use in the proper circumstances only. Like a hammer can be the right tool to drive nails it is also not a good tool to cut tile or glass. I don't blame the hammer if I break the glass trying to cut it to size. It is nether good nor bad but a tool.

If you have a natural bloom and 18in visibility you probably don't need any fertilizer. Most ponds do not need a fertilizer program as they have natural fertility. If such a program is not needed then you will not need as much lime. It is still good to add lime if your alkalinity is low as it allows your natural fertility to work better and buffers the pond against big pH swings. The real key is the closer the pond water pH is to the pH of fish blood (average blood pH of 7.4 for fish) the better the fish thrive. Nature's simplicity at work. Here is a link on the subject from SARC.

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/13452410-46...facb58338461b24
















#27274 06/22/07 11:29 AM
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stclAG,

Howdy neighbor...East Texas rules for ponds...in spite of what you may read from naysayers. Our abundant rains and great sub-surface clays are a paradise for pond owners and our long growing seasons enable superb growth in our fish.

Our surface soils are generally acidic and most ponds benefit from 4 to 6 tons per acre of lime every 5 years or so. $45 per ton spread sounds like a reasonable price to me. I bought 26 tons last year for pasture and ponds at a spread cost of about $37 per ton, but fuel costs have really hit hard in that regard.

I like a higher alkalinity myself for optimum fish growth and keep my ponds in the 100 to 125 range generally. If it were me, I wouldn't nickle and dime the lime, but go ahead and add the 4 tons if that is what the soil tests recommend. My results are all documented at:

http://www.meadowlarkponds.com/


Fertilization is an interesting topic...and in my opinion, results can vary substantially. In our region, it pays to be very careful about fertilization.

Some folks will tell you to fertilize to help control the weeds in your pond...then recommend other chemicals to use when the weeds explode in growth from the fertilizers...run as fast as you can away from those folks. Ohh, by the way, I should say I'm a natural kind of person, always looking for natural solutions first rather than chemicals in ponds. Chemicals are a last resort for me. I will, on rare occasions in the spring when the water color doesn't show enough "green", add cottonseed meal to get a bloom going, but do so with great caution and never in summer conditions.

If I can help you in any way, please advise. I've made most of the mistakes that can be made on ponds around here (south of Lufkin, north of Livingston).

What kind of fishing do you have? If different from what you have, what kind of fishing would you like to have?

#27275 06/22/07 01:47 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Meadowlark:
stclAG,

Howdy neighbor...East Texas rules for ponds...in spite of what you may read from naysayers. Our abundant rains and great sub-surface clays are a paradise for pond owners and our long growing seasons enable superb growth in our fish.

Our surface soils are generally acidic and most ponds benefit from 4 to 6 tons per acre of lime every 5 years or so. $45 per ton spread sounds like a reasonable price to me. I bought 26 tons last year for pasture and ponds at a spread cost of about $37 per ton, but fuel costs have really hit hard in that regard.
ML, good ole East Texas boys sometimes react to a ”burr under the saddle” or an “itch you can’t scratch”?
Other wise an excellent post.

I guess I’m guilty of being the “naysayer” you are referring to, but if you review past posts about water quality in East Texas, you will find that the geologic information provided was a professional opinion, for a person doing a land search looking for optimum water quality.

Five tons per acre @ $40/ton for 26 acres is not a small expenditure for many folks.

George Glazener

#27276 06/23/07 11:18 AM
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I haven't posted anything in awhile but just want to join the many East Texas pond managers with great ponds. It has been a good year for us this year will all the rain but that too creates some problems. I am about 15 miles north of Sulphur Springs and have a 2 acre pond and this years Tilapia stocking is doing exceptionally well. Can't wait to start harvesting them. Hope you all have a happy and healty summer.

#27277 06/23/07 12:15 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Pondrookie:
I haven't posted anything in awhile but just want to join the many East Texas pond managers with great ponds. It has been a good year for us this year will all the rain but that too creates some problems. I am about 15 miles north of Sulphur Springs and have a 2 acre pond and this years Tilapia stocking is doing exceptionally well. Can't wait to start harvesting them. Hope you all have a happy and healty summer.
Pondrookie, I “share crop” on my son’s pond’s about five miles north of your place in Delta County, and indeed it has been a frustrating, exciting, and productive year for East Texas pond managers with great ponds.

We have survived records drought years, floods for some, and I have lucked out on meeting my personal goals of managing productive “put and take ponds”, producing near trophy class HSB, CNBG and RES, although trophy fish are not my objective.

For our many out of state friends, as well as “neoTexans”, we need to clarify what “East Texas” really means:
N.E. Texas
East Texas
“Deep” East Texas
S.E. Texas

For those unfamiliar with Texas distances, it’s >250 miles miles from Sulphur Springs (N.E. Texas) to Houston (S.E. Texas)

Same wishes to all:
“Hope you all have a happy and healthy summer.”

George Glazener
N.E. Texas
2 acre and ¼ acres ponds

#27278 06/23/07 12:51 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by george:
For our many out of state friends, as well as “neoTexans”, we need to clarify what “East Texas” really means:
N.E. Texas
East Texas
“Deep” East Texas
S.E. Texas
I'm glad to see you're shunning those cretins in West East Texas, george (assuming it exists).


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#27279 06/23/07 01:30 PM
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Ast Taxes= Piney Woods.


#27280 06/23/07 02:17 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Theo Gallus:
 Quote:
Originally posted by george:
For our many out of state friends, as well as “neoTexans”, we need to clarify what “East Texas” really means:
N.E. Texas
East Texas
“Deep” East Texas
S.E. Texas
I'm glad to see you're shunning those cretins in West East Texas, george (assuming it exists).
Theo, I'm glad I didn't include those \:D West East Texas boys.....

Burger, you can take a Nacogdoches boy out of East Texas, but 'ya can't take "Ast Taxes" out of the boy.... :p

#27281 06/23/07 04:23 PM
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Pondrookie good to see you back. Glad all is well at your place.

Those pine trees will grow in lots of different kinds of soil . George what about the soils generally in those 4 sub groups of E. Tex. - are they the same?
















#27282 06/23/07 05:53 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by ewest:
Those pine trees will grow in lots of different kinds of soil . George what about the soils generally in those 4 sub groups of E. Tex. - are they the same?
No, they are not all the same……

The point that I was trying to make, and failed, that it is a mistake to classify all soil groups as “East Texas”.

Imagine a “layer cake” of sedimentary rocks, subsequently eroded from hills to valleys, to river flood plains, changing one type to another.
“It all depends”

Soils weather from rocks…
Good question – thanks.
\:\)

ps: not to further complicate matters, but a geologic cross section between N.E. to S. E. Texas, in addition to erosional and structural features, will demonstrate “increase in thickness and depth “down-dip”, changing from older surface to younger surface rocks, all deposited in shallow seas toward present day Gulf of Mexico.

#27283 06/23/07 07:57 PM
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Ah, the prattle of those East of the Trinity. Don't worry, you won't be taken seriously or held accountable.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
#27284 06/24/07 01:09 AM
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boy, and i thought us northern californians and southern californians had our differences....

also a good thread for TX geography and geology.....

stclAG...do you aerate? in my arid climate pond, i've found it to significantly and positively affect water clarity and quality (lessens clarity and increases quality and productivity).


GSF are people too!

#27285 06/25/07 08:40 AM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Pondrookie:
I haven't posted anything in awhile but just want to join the many East Texas pond managers with great ponds... this years Tilapia stocking is doing exceptionally well. Can't wait to start harvesting them. Hope you all have a happy and healty summer.
Pondrookie,

To you as well. I consider myself very fortunate indeed to be part of the East Texas family of pond managers which you exemplify so very well. East Texas is as much a state of mind as anything.

You mentioned Tilapia...For some reason, I've really been on Tilapia the last three weeks. I've found one spot which reliably results in catches each time. I hope it stays that way 'till fall. I wish you a successsful, fulfilling pond journey!

#27286 06/25/07 09:49 AM
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Pond rookie – hope I didn’t ruffle any feathers, and if so I apologize to everyone.

My comments were intended to correct mis-information as to statements that grouping East Texas soils into one category is incorrect.

Your pond that is located 15 miles north of Sulphur Springs is classified as “Post Oak Savannah” geographically/ tertiary geologically, being transitional from Blackland Prairie/Cretaceous alkaline soils to the north.

Our ponds are five miles north of you, in the same transitional area, with optimum water quality. I would venture an opinion that we share the same water properties.

As a dyed in the wool, bred and born “deep” East Texan, I agree with ML that “we are very fortunate indeed to be part of the East Texas family of pond managers…
East Texas is as much a state of mind as anything.” \:\)

#27287 06/25/07 01:10 PM
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Don't know much about Texas except for what everybody knows.... it's HUGE. A few years back I drove a convertible muscle car across the middle of the state. Took me two days. When I mentioned it to a old high school buddy of mine (who happens to be a pilot that flies out of Dallas) he said to me... "You drove across Texas? Don't you know that's why planes were invented?" \:\)


JHAP
~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
#27288 06/25/07 02:03 PM
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Didja cross Baja Arkansas, too?


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
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