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#324639 03/08/13 12:42 AM
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Greetings. Brand new magazine subscriber and new to posting. I have a pond 3/4 acre I dug 4 years ago south suburb Chicago. I have it stocked with largemouth, smallmouth, perch, bluegil, some walley and pumpkinseed. I dug it with various ridges and steep sides just like Ray Scott's video said. Nate Herman from Herman Bros pond management has been very helpful and stocked all my fish. I have 2 aerators which I run from early May thru October typically. The pond is 25 foot deep with a secondary 20 foot hole. I had heron problems until I got two outdoor dogs to chase them away. Now I never see a heron. I have 4 smaller cat tail clusters. I have put pallets in the north side of the pond for fathead spawning. I put 10 lbs fatheads in each fall and each early spring. The bluegills are spawning and thriving. As well as all the other species in the clay pond. The bass were feed trained "footballs" when I put them in about 8 inches long. Today they are about 5 lbs. I have trouble catching small bass, although I have some. The bluegills are all different sizes, so I think good balance there. My goal is to have a successful balance of all species( walleye just for fun I don't think they will spawn but have been tasty- I took out 10 this spring they were 16 inches long and were 6 inches when stocked 4 years ago) but primary goal is big bass. That's basically what I have going on in my pond, my question I struggle with is will copper sulphate HARM my fish, if I use it. The algae only grows 3-4 feet from the edge and almost makes it around the pond. It starts to show up usually in early April. I think some algae is good, but I don't want it in there as it gets tangled in fish lines etc. I have heard I should only treat 1 side of the pond if I use the copper sulphate at a time. Then wait another week then do another side.

Artie76 #324641 03/08/13 01:21 AM
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Using a Chelated Copper algaecide is better than using Copper Sulphate. It will stay active in the water longer than Copper Sulphate.

The treatment schedule is because when the algae dies and decomposes, it uses oxygen. There's a possibility of causing too much of an O2 drop in the pond if you were to treat the whole pond at one time, depending on the amount of algae that is killed.

There's a pond in Lemont that I visit twice a month, that has a waterfall and stream that is actually water pumped from the pond. The owner likes to have trout stocked in the Fall for the winter so I treat the stream about every 6 weeks with Phycomycin. I would use a copper based product, but can't because of the trout. The pond has a very good bloom in it during the summer so algae rarely grows to an extent that it would be a problem.

Sounds like the Nate did a heck of a job on the pond!


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Artie76 #324656 03/08/13 09:34 AM
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Artie, I would ditch any form of copper in your situation and talk to Nate about his bacteria line and perhaps GreenClean Pro.Constantly killing off your ring of algae just feeds the symptom. This would also leave you good for any trout stocking in the future if you wanted to.I would also have Nate run some basic water testing if not done already for ortho P PH alkalinity etc just to get an inventory. Also if your feeding your fish be sure all feed is being consumed at it does not take much uneaten feed at the shoreline to start FA growing.Just my 2 cents, Good Luck

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Fish eggs and fry are more sensitive to CuSO4 compared to the adults of each species. See a link in my post below for more information about overall copper affects. It is not advised to use CuSO4 when fish are spawning, during the hatch and early development if recruitment is desired. Minnows, trout and possibly shad tend to be most sensitive to Cu ions compared to other common fish species. Cu sensitivity of fish species is on a scale of most to least sensitive. Different species of fish have different sensitivities to copper ions in the water. IMO the biggest impact of using copper is its affect on the lower levels of the food chain (plankton and simplier micro and macro-invertebrates) that tend to be more sensitive to copper compared to adult fish. The food chain is better with biodiversity, keeps the pond 'healthier', and grows your fish. Copper as a metal accumulates in the sediments as a complex heavy metal - copper carbonate. As 'esshup' mentions Phycomycin and the other sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate products (hydrogen peroxide - hydrogen dioxide, Green Clean Pro) are less harmful to the overall ecosystem.

If you are having filamentous algae(FA) issues that indicates you have excess unused nutrients in the system and the nutrient basis or regime is favoring the filamentous algae growth. Reduce the nutrient load or channel it toward other pathways (rooted plants = fish habitat) that are not creating a nuisance. An bio-option is to use tilapia to consume the algae and channel the nutrient plant biomass into fish biomass. Blue tilapia are proven to be the overall best strain for FA control.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/11/13 03:06 PM.

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Bill, I'll have to check into Illinois this year, but as of last year Tilapia stocking wasn't allowed.


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Artie76 #324660 03/08/13 10:04 AM
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There are ways to treat for FA and several were noted above. There is an extensive archive on FA at http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92633#Post92633

CUSO4 can harm fish in 2 ways. In low alkalinity waters it can inhibit gill function and the ability of fish to uptake O2 and they suffocate. In most waters CU (from CUSO4 but not from chelated copper)can build up in the pond bottom and cause problems with the food chain including fish.

One suggestion is manual removal. If it is just around the edge you can rake a lot of it out. It is work but it removes the bound nutrients out of the pond. IMO that is the best method for all purposes. Water and soil tests are a very good idea. So is iding the FA type as treatments for all species are not the same. So is reducing the nutrient load as per Bill's note.

Last edited by ewest; 03/08/13 10:06 AM.















Artie76 #324663 03/08/13 10:12 AM
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ewest - do you have a reference that shows chelated copper does not end up in the sediments? Absorption of the chelated copper in the water column does occur either by organics or planktonic organisms until all is absorbed. Bound copper compounds are normally stable in the enviornment and do not normally decompose. They can change chemical states. What is the enviornmental fate of the bound copper from chelated copper products if the end point is not accumulated in the sediments? Where does it end up? As I understand it, the main benefit of cheleated copper products is that one uses less elemental copper per dosage compared to CuSO4 (copper sulfate).

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/08/13 12:42 PM.

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I'll start by listing 2 sides to the story (at least that's my take on it)

http://www.alliedbiological.com/images/newsletter_2006_Fall2.pdf

http://www.chemone.com/default/other/ark_aquafarming_vol_21_no_2_fall_2004.pdf

I have used chelated copper in my pond when trout were in the pond. I treated areas that were about 40'-60' wide by about 5' out from shore with no trout dying that I could see. Do I recommend doing it? NO! But, since it was my pond, I wanted to test it.


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Artie76 #324672 03/08/13 10:58 AM
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Chelated copper will remain more active but when you consider that a lot of algae is being spot or perimeter sprayed the dilution factor is great thus lowering its capability to have much of a residual or potentially lethal effect. To acquire much residual you would have to use the labeled calculations for treating acre feet vs surface mats.With a lot of ponds getting turned over 1-3 times per day copper sensetive fish may be safer that unaerated ponds also.

Artie76 #324678 03/08/13 11:25 AM
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Bill I did not say that. Here is the sentence.

" In most waters CU (from CUSO4 but not from chelated copper)can build up in the pond bottom and cause problems with the food chain including fish."

Note the conjunctive "and". I have not seen any info (but would like to if it is out there) that says chelated copper residue will both build up in sediment and cause food chain problems. If it does I would like to know. The concept of chelated is that it is bound and unavailable i.e.
"Chelated" means "Inactivated" or "Sequestered".

I am no big fan of Cu in any of its forms and try to avoid it (but will use it under certain conditions) - see my post re manual removal above. I often kill small near shore patches of FA with hydrated lime but have noted caution as that raises the pH to 11 and can kill fish as well. Plus our waters can use the extra alkalinity.
















Artie76 #324682 03/08/13 12:43 PM
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I'm working on a response. Stay tuned to this thread.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/08/13 12:43 PM.

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Artie76 #324764 03/09/13 03:00 AM
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Guys this is some pretty good input, and I thank you for that. I think good common sense is always the best practice. Many variables come into play, and each pond we deal with is different in its own right I suppose. I can imagine that if copper sulphate lowers and /or removes oxygen levels and thus in turn ultimately kills algae, caution certainly should be used. I'd imagine a hot summer day with O2 levels suffering and depleted would not be good to pour a bunch of that into the pond. I have used some if it, basically a few cupfulls at a time sparingly around the edges and tried to find the happy medium. Anything that the blue fine granules touched, turned brown and died off. If I did not rake it out, that dead algae would just turn into muck and end up in the bottom of the pond. So in reality, I think the best is just to rake it out as needed. And maybe do some small spot treatments using the copper sulphate. Steep sides to the pond definitely help I think. In using the copper sulphate in limited doses, I cannot say that it has harmed the fish, however it may create some long term problems I suppose based on the above comments. My property I dug the pond on used to be a horse pasture. I think there is lots of "nutrients" around. Ill talk with Nate regarding this, I may have him do some water tests with me, and we are planning a electro shock just to investigate the fish. It's a work in progress and is a lot if fun for me to be able to do this and discuss with fellow pond guys. And I do have a feeder I feed aqua max 50% protein grower and mix that with smaller pan fish pellets. I figure this way the bass get the larger pellets and the bluegil eat the smaller pellets. ( which they do) a key to a successful bass pond is to concentrate maybe not so much on the bass... But rather their forage. And harvest smaller bass less than 10-12 inches of course!

Artie76 #324769 03/09/13 06:32 AM
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Artie:

The Copper Sulphate itself doesn't lower the O2 level, the O2 level drops because the algae that the CuSO4 killed died and is decomposing. The process of decomposition needs O2.

Talk to Nate about their bacteria. Also talk to him about whether you should be running the aeration system all year long.


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Artie76 #325045 03/11/13 03:13 PM
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Here is a link from Oregon State Univ about copper sulfate.
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/cuso4tech.html
See specific information near the bottom of the link in headings of:
Environmental Fate - Water
Ecotoxicity Studies - Fish & Auatic Organisms.

Usual suggested rate of dosage when applying CuSO4 is 1 part per million final concentartion in the pond for killing algae. When reading the concentrations for the toxicity of Cu in various tests for fish and aquatic organisms remember that
1 ppm = 1000 micrograms per Liter (ug/L) or 1000 parts per billion (ppb).
Many of the results are ug/L or ppb reported as

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/11/13 03:23 PM.

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Here are some notes from two Technical Service Reports (124-475 & 138-378) written by Applied Biochemists the sellers of Cutrine and Cutrine Plus. In summary bound forms of copper from chelated algacides do end up in the algae, rooted plants, suspended organic materials and the sediments.
Report 138-378.
A test pond in WI, max depth 7ft, with filamentous algae Rhizoclonium was treated with 2.6 gal /ac of Cutrine Plus. Copper concentrations in the water at 3 locations after treatment were: Immediate after treatment 0.24-1.58ppm, 24 hrs 0.21-0.28, 48hrs 0.20-0.23, 72 hrs 0.19-0.20, 8 days 0.07ppm, 12 days 0.01ppm. Tests showed Cu maintained a presence for 12 days after treatment. Sources of Cu uptake of Cutrine Plus include being tied up with suspended organic materials, higher vascular plants, and bottom sediments.
Report 123-475.
Copper loss from the water column with Cutrine and Cutrine Plus was studied over 3 different sediment types 1. Heavy silty clay loam, 2. Mucky peat, 3. Dark brown loam. Initial doses of copper from Cutrine were 5 and 10ppm. Rapid copper losses occurred over all soil types within 4 hrs of application. Concentrations after the 2nd day were about 10 times les than the initial application concentration. Concentrations of Cu in the deionized water of the control without any sediment remained high and near the applied dosage for entire 22 days of the study period. Quickest Cu loss was in water over highly organic soils. Slightly lower rates of Cu loss occurred with Curine-Plus vs Cutrine but the difference was not significant. In general, rates and amount of Cu uptake increased with higher organic and clay fractions in the sediment.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/11/13 08:04 PM.

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Artie76 #325093 03/11/13 09:09 PM
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I read that 3 times and am not sure what they mean. What is background Cu in the soil/muck? Less than .01 ppm ? Is it bound up or not ? If so does it amount to enough to cause problems?
















Artie76 #334884 05/15/13 05:38 PM
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Anymore thoughts on this guys??


I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.

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Artie76 #337075 05/31/13 01:07 AM
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Yep... I should have studied chemistry(sp) more in high school... confused grin grin.

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Can I treat my acre pond with copper sulphate during spawning I have blue gill bass and channel cat. The algae has already started

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Gris, one of the things I noticed with Copper Sulfate is that when you throw some on a mat of F.A., it basically seems to 'sink' the F.A. mat to the bottom of the pond.

So, if that mat was above a spawning bed, I think that would negate that nest.

Having said that, if you use it gently and sparingly, I think you'd be OK during spawn.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Could also treat a very small area above a few nests and see what happens to the algae and if it appears to disrupt the nesting and the fish on the nest?

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If it was me, I would just avoid using Copper Sulfate around any nests/beds.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Sunil #547696 05/10/22 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Sunil
If it was me, I would just avoid using Copper Sulfate around any nests/beds.

Ditto.


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Plus 2. keep away from nests when active - the BG know what they are doing. The time to work around nests is before or after the spawn.
















Artie76 #547711 05/10/22 07:15 PM
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Use of copper compounds is outdated and environmentally damaging. Use of modern synthetic compounds is more effective and environmentally friendly.

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