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ap beautiful pics. brook trout my pipe is 2in

Last edited by small pond; 03/08/13 03:01 PM.

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SMPD, those winter pictures remind me of where I grew up in Ky., sure wish we had a nice looking pond with those big hog trout in it when we were kids. Take care.


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Originally Posted By: brooktrout

AP- Thank you for the pics, I am a visual kinda guy. Why did you go with 2 inlet pipes? Also, why did you decide to use a bent pvc? It looks like you have a really nice elevation drop from stream to pond. Im thining I may need a pump, my slope is not as dramatic as yours.

two last question for now, do you have trout in your pond and pond depth? Also, do you have an out flow of water and if so to where?

My first pipe was elevated over a big rock and supported all the way to the pond to keep an even downhill angle, the property here is very rocky and uneven. The second pipe follows along the ground with some ups and downs and so the output is about 10GPM less than the elevated pipe. The elevation drop is 12 feet.
I have 2 pipes for redundancy, falling trees have disrupted the siphons twice.
I've had trout every year except last year when my dam started leaking badly, it was repaired and will be restocking this spring with Tiger trout from a hatchery and Brook trout that I get from the stream on my property.
The pond has a maximum depth of 8 ft. and the pond outflow thru 2 culverts flows back to the stream because the stream is below the pond when it flows within 100ft. of it.



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The water inlets are above the waterfall, that's where the elevation comes from. You can see the elevated pipe in the upper right corner of the photo.




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Hey guys, I tried searching but could not find much info on pond liners. I called around and gota quote of 300 for a tri axel load (22-ton) of clay.. With the size of the pond being about 25x50X8 with about 6" of clay liner, this would be aroud 1500.00 just for the product without labor. So I decided to look into a rubber liner.. Man in this confusing. there are 10, 20, 30, 40, 45, 60 mil.. I know the 10 is cheap stuff and the 60 mil is high quality stuff! I guess im asking what mil would I need/want to put in the pond so I can figure out how much coin this is going to cost me.

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try googling used billboard tarps some people say they're complete crap but as long as you cover it in sand or dirt they won't leak will last a long time and are super cheap for a pond your size youl spend right around 100 bucks. they are between 10 and 20 mil but there so cheap you can buy a couple of them and just through them on top of one another but if you don't cover them in dirt it won't work to well. hope this helps.

Last edited by small pond; 03/11/13 04:42 PM.

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Mark:

I wouldn't waste my time with only 6" of clay. I'm of the opinion that if I'm going to have the equipment on site to properly put a clay liner in my pond, I want no less than an 18" thick layer all the way to top, and really, really would like 24" thick layer of properly placed and compacted clay. Not just the bottom, all the way up the sides to a point that is higher than the water level will be. I put properly in bold because there's a right way and many wrong ways to put clay in a pond to seal it.

Now on to liners. Think of a liner as the ONLY thing stopping the water from leaking out from your pond. With that in mind, would you rather go thin or thick? Keep in mind, the liner will be there for as long as you own the pond, and have water in it. Any hole or seam that is not glued together will let water escape.

https://www.btlliners.com/


FWIW, I called around and got quotes for close to $30K to line my pond when I renovated it. I didn't do either, and now am looking at $5K+ for the well plus monthly electric costs to keep my pond full with a well.

Last edited by esshup; 03/11/13 11:53 PM. Reason: clarification

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Scott,

Isn't that a typo? You're not paying $5000.00 per month in electric bills are you? If so you've been holding out on me. Here I thought you were as poor as me. LOL


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Edited the post for clarification. It's $5K+ for the well, then the operating costs on top of that. I haven't figured out the plumbing that would be needed for it either. It has to be freeze proof if it turns off in the winter for any length of time.

JKB, you'd better get crackin' on that running 3 phase on single phase stuff for your property. I'll need that info this yaer! laugh


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Thanks for the info guys. So, I guess its better to go big than go home. Does any 1 on this forum use a liner? If so what Mil and how does it hold up?

I would obv. use carpet for a mat under the liner and cover the liner with sand.

esshup, do you recall what Mil was quoted @ 30K?

Cecil, do you have any input on liners?


Thanks again.


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That was a rough quote for a 60 mil liner, but it also was when I renovated my pond in 2008. IIRC the quote was given in 2007.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
That was a rough quote for a 60 mil liner, but it also was when I renovated my pond in 2008. IIRC the quote was given in 2007.


Liners went up a bit the past couple years. Looking at some old info, a 45 mil x 50 x 100 Firestone EPDM was about 1600 bucks, plus shipping. (I would pick up) New price from the same company is 3,400.00. That's quite a price hike in about 3 years. My only option tho.

I see a few places that are selling EPDM roofing for pond liners. Some claim to be able to "clean it up to be fish safe". I am not sure what the "real" difference is between the two. Probably worth an investigation tho.

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JKB, after Cecil posted about it a while back, I checked the stuff in the local big box store. Yep, fish safe. Only 12' widths in stock tho.


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ESSHUP- that qoute would have been for what size pond? Aprox, 1 acre?

BROOKTROUT- your goal was a pond 0f 20x50. That is aprox .02 acres.

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Need to investigate further tho. Make sure the fish they are talking about are not just KOI.

I really do not know what's going on in this area. Maybe one of our PB Engineers can snoop out the facts and lay it out.

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Originally Posted By: JKB
Need to investigate further tho. Make sure the fish they are talking about are not just KOI.

I really do not know what's going on in this area. Maybe one of our PB Engineers can snoop out the facts and lay it out.


It's the same stuff Phil. Kellen told me he had a friend that worked at the place they make it. Said it was the same exact thing. It's all about marketing and marking up something claiming there's is "fish safe."

The 12' width roofing EPDM liner I bought at Menards says in white letters, "Safe for Aquatic Use."


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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What I had quotes for is a pond that is irregular in shape, with an island in the middle. Maximum dimensions:

Pond is roughly 270' wide, 300' long, max. pond depth at full pool 22'. Actual surface area is somewhere between 1 to 1 1/4 acre.


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Thanks Guys.Is assuming im going to spend betwee 2-3k for the liner if I go with a 45 or 60mil. I assume the 30 mil would not be sufficent and tear eaisly? Does anyone have a 30mil liner installed?

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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: JKB
Need to investigate further tho. Make sure the fish they are talking about are not just KOI.

I really do not know what's going on in this area. Maybe one of our PB Engineers can snoop out the facts and lay it out.


It's the same stuff Phil. Kellen told me he had a friend that worked at the place they make it. Said it was the same exact thing. It's all about marketing and marking up something claiming there's is "fish safe."

The 12' width roofing EPDM liner I bought at Menards says in white letters, "Safe for Aquatic Use."


Is it safe for fish that would end up on the dinner table? That's what I would like to know.
I'll dig into it a bit more in the coming weeks and find out what's up! I am not one to take things seriously until I read the "Fine Print"!

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Originally Posted By: esshup

JKB, you'd better get crackin' on that running 3 phase on single phase stuff for your property. I'll need that info this year! laugh


I have a bit more complex situation than you do. I too, would like a 100GPM baseline well, but I can only have one well on my property, which has to service all the water needs, from drawing a cup of water to filling a lined pond or tanks.

How many revolutions of a 10HP, multistage well pump does it take to fill a glass of water? Not many at all!

If I have to bang a pump that size to a frequency of 30Hz in less than 1 second, that will be a bit more than a glass of water shocked

Motors are the weak link right now. Piece of cake for most industrial motors. (actually, I am not a big fan of cake. At my sisters birthday last weekend, she was asking everyone what kind of cake they wanted for their birthday. I said, make mine a Blueberry Pie! What a good idea, went all around! (I have 7 sisters and 3 brothers, plus many nieces and nephews) and everyone get's to pick their favorite pie for their birthday. Talk about hitting the jackpot grin)

Anyway, in an open flow situation for your pond, you won't have to worry about the fine details I am dealing with. I will be making phone calls to engineers at Grundfos in the next several weeks to get more info. Their motors may be able to pull off all that BS I previously stated.

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Thanks. let me know what you find out. Even with the rain and snowmelt that happened this past week or so the pond only came up 1/2".

I'd just up the house well and dump to the pond but I don't want to turn on a 5 or 10 hp motor every time the bladder tanks run low if I can run a 3/4 hp motor instead. wink


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Originally Posted By: esshup
Thanks. let me know what you find out. Even with the rain and snowmelt that happened this past week or so the pond only came up 1/2".

I'd just up the house well and dump to the pond but I don't want to turn on a 5 or 10 hp motor every time the bladder tanks run low if I can run a 3/4 hp motor instead. wink


I never mentioned bladder tanks wink

You don't understand the control and performance scenario I am working with, which will be a major issue to understand this.

I thought I did pretty good with the cup and pond analogy, just to give you an idea.

It's a bit on the technical side of life, and unless you know what you are doing, could cause problems.

I was a bit hesitant to even post this in the first place.

Need to do the "Fine Print" stuff for your specific application, and am quite sure you could easily save a buncha bucks in electricity filling your pond. Not Plug-N-Play tho. Needs to be Engineered wink

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I know you never mentioned bladder tanks. wink

I have them at my place, in fact there are 3 of them all in the same system. The well driller, when he put in the new well put them all in. I had one in the previous system, and one in the box as a reserve. He quoted the job with a bladder tank, and said that if he hooked them all up, the pump wouldn't turn on as much if I were to only use it for the house.

You DID do a great job with the cup analogy.

That's why I'm waiting on your decision, you understand how this 3-phase on a single phase supply system stuff works MUCH better than I do. I figure that if you think it's good enough for your system, it'll be good enough for mine. wink grin


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Without a bladder tank, does the motor have to kick on each time you turn the water on? We are going to put an artesian well at Aylett to do the house(not built yet) and to goose the pond somewhat. I would be very interested in your process also.


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That would be the case Ken. Most (what they call Variable Speed) household systems utilize small bladder tanks, which one would want to do, but they use much smaller pumps, which makes getting a glass of water much easier. The system would have an analog pressure transducer which connects to an input on the pump control. Once you set the pressure in the control, it will maintain that pressure from minimum flow to it's maximum flow when you turn the water on. The motor needs to change speed to do that.

Problem going with a larger well pump, is that the pump motor manufacturers state that you can not run these larger pump motors under the frequency of 30Hz for more that 1 second or you will damage the motor. That's the current drawback for larger well pump motors. You can do that pretty much with any other type of 3 phase industrial motor, just not the submersible well motors.

I hooked up this little 1/2 hp 3 phase motor in my apartment. Pretty much a standard motor that was made in 2007. It's actually running in the pic, and is running off of 240vac single phase. Not an issue ramping the speed from 0-10 Hz over the time frame of 30 seconds. That's a pretty soft start for such a basic motor. Larger motors will do the same. The really fancy ones can play songs!



This is the gizmo that is actually running the motor. The 50.0 on the display is what frequency the motor is currently running at. If I were to run this simple motor in the 0-10 Hz test (which was looped to repeat, over and over) with a Walmart flavored gizmo, that motor probably would have fried within a few minutes.



There is more to this tho. The gizmo running the motor get's it's instructions from another gadget. This other gadget, has far reaching capabilities and can monitor and control thousands of gizmos. There is also a widget, that I can play with from pretty much any place, that can tell the gadget what to do with the gizmos.

My dilemma here, is that the high quality gizmo (not the Walmart type) can easily cradle, with love and respect, the simple 3 phase motor, providing it's not really old. The disclaimers I am seeing, may be that the motor manufacturers automatically assume that you are buying your gizmo from Walmart. I need to get this clarified.

I had to mostly disassemble this. Morph the gadget and widget into a new entity with it's own personality, then surgically implant it on a Roller Coaster to find out what's up! Worked Great! Dwight likes to analyze data. He would probably like the more than 216,000 log's I was sucking off this in a day. Quite a bit of fun!

I know I am not explaining this very well. It's been a pretty crappy week.

I'll have better info later. This is the only example I have with pics.

Next week, I have to get the Chinese and Germans communicating. Funny thing tho, is the China stuff was built in Chicago. You say What!!!

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