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When you have a siphon drain setup, is there any bad effects of this system during winter months?

It pulls the bad quality water from the bottom area during the summer, but what about the winter time when the fish are deeper and making use of that water.

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No bad effects at my place. I may lose a few fish in the winter, but I really need the fresh water in the summer. Keeping the oxygen rich water in the puddle during the heat of the summer is my main concern. Having my siphon intake lower does that for me.


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FnC,

Remember the only time water should be running out your syphon pipe is when NEW water is entering your system (IE rain or snow melt) and that water should be better quality than the water at the bottom of your pond. What should happen is that as the bottom water is syphoned away, newer water replaces it from the top down. The only thing I could see happening is that your pond might get a little colder towards the botton temporarily but I'll always take better quality water for my pond any time.

Any thoughts from the experts?


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Originally Posted By: highflyer


The only thing I could see happening is that your pond might get a little colder towards the botton temporarily but I'll always take better quality water for my pond any time.

Any thoughts from the experts?


Yes, I am thinking that it would be colder water, but was wondering if it ever gets to the point that it would be to much. I remember something in past topics about "super cooling" from aeration during the winter. Thought this type of set-up might be a similar effect. Perhaps with a siphon sysyem you don't need to aerate during the winter, or at least not as much? I suppose there are to many variables to really have any answer to my question.

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I don't know how many ponds gain water thru the winter. Ours here sure don't!


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As of yesterday afternoon after the front passed through our area,we gained 4.4" of rain and just 4 days ago we got 1.4". My estimate was our pond was about 2' low before the rains and now we are just under 1" from being at full pool.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
I don't know how many ponds gain water thru the winter. Ours here sure don't!


Thats one of those "to many factors" I am trying to figure into the scenario. I have a spring that runs over the ground surface into the pond. It has constant flow, and thru out the winter with warm ups it gets heavier with run-offs of cold water. I'm thinking that that the amount of cold water that comes in is probably less than what an aerator would accomplish as far as getting the water to cold. Then again, if someone would have a constant large influx of water into a pond, during winter time, may be they have something to worry about ...... Could it be that if a bunch of cold water is dumped into a pond it would sink to a layer that the fish avoids. Since an aerator is not running it won't be thouroughly mixed with all the other water?

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FnC if you have spring water flowing into your pond all the time, a syphon pipe can't hurt you. I don't care if you put in on the bottom or the top. DO the MATH. How much water do your receive each hour, day, week. ect. and how much water does your pond hold? Getting rid of bottom water is never a bad thing. I can find no data that says getting rid of the worst water in your pond is a bad thing, so stop complaining about having to deel with so much water, put in a syphon pipe and be happy. Mine is located 4-5 feet off the bottom but I believe you can put one as close as 2-3 feet from the bottom without having any adverse affects (sucking up mud, ect.).

If you are worried about temperature, remember when water gets to about 39 degrees F it becomes less dense and floats. If the spring water is warmer than that, it will try to sink and mix.

Don't make me get out the zeroith law of thermodynamics on you!!! Just be happy you have to deal with that much nice clean new water, there are a lot of people here that would love to have that problem.


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From what I understand, water is it's densest at 39F. Colder than that and it floats upwards. Warmer than that, and it does the same thing. But, in winter, normally the warmest water in the pond is the densest if you don't have water entering the pond.

I'd go with the siphon and not overthink it.

In the wintertime, you don't want to have your bottom diffuser on the bottom of the deepest part of the pond anyways, it should be around 1/3 to 1/4 the total pond depth so it will leave the densest, warmest water at the bottom of the pond for a "warm water refuge".


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First off, I realize now that my questions really don't have as much to do with siphons as they do to with the the temps and DO. If I can get a better understanding of that, then I will undersatnd how the rest may fall in place.

I was looking at Dwight's "weekly observations" and that has helped me alot to see temps and DO thru the season. It proves just like you guys are saying about the water temps and where they should be in levels. However, add into that the DO. There are rare times that the DO was highest at the bottom of the pond, and that has me confused. What is the general rule for DO? Is it always higher at the surface no matter what temp the water is? Or will it be occasionally higher at other depths because the water temp can hold it better?


Thanks for the help so far. Sometimes the brain works in slow gear and can be frustating to those trying to help me. I just like understanding how/why things work. I've never been much for just accepting it as stated without the understanding of why.

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Originally Posted By: esshup
From what I understand, water is it's densest at 39F. Colder than that and it floats upwards. Warmer than that, and it does the same thing. But, in winter, normally the warmest water in the pond is the densest if you don't have water entering the pond.

I'd go with the siphon and not overthink it.

In the wintertime, you don't want to have your bottom diffuser on the bottom of the deepest part of the pond anyways, it should be around 1/3 to 1/4 the total pond depth so it will leave the densest, warmest water at the bottom of the pond for a "warm water refuge".


This is my take also. My biggest concern for our ponds involves RES.... the warmest water in the dead of winter will probably be at the bottom of the pond, @ 39 degrees. Maintaining adequate DO in that deep water would seem to me to be important for RES survival. It's my understanding that they are limited in their search to find oxygenated water by their inability to tolerate the colder temperatures associated with going shallower in the winter.....succumb to lack of DO, or perish due to cold water?

This may be an extreme example, unlikely to occur, but a pond in Texas is quite possibly a different animal from a pond in Ohio, during the winter. In the winter I like to concentrate my efforts on maintaining adequate DO, and leaving the water near the bottom untouched, and unmixed. It's worked that way in my ponds for over 40 years, with never a fishkill....so far, so good.


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So I have been reading all along that fish go deeper in the winter and have been thinking that they do this for two reasons. Water temps and DO. However, it seems as if water temp is the most important thing and DO just happens to be there. Does a fish go into their temperature zone and will not pursue DO outside of that zone when it runs out? It would rather suffocate than be to cold/hot?


Have read this on DO and thermocline. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...1&site_id=1
Noticed a few more in the archives I that I need to read.

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Originally Posted By: fish n chips
So I have been reading all along that fish go deeper in the winter and have been thinking that they do this for two reasons. Water temps and DO. However, it seems as if water temp is the most important thing and DO just happens to be there. Does a fish go into their temperature zone and will not pursue DO outside of that zone when it runs out? It would rather suffocate than be to cold/hot?
Have read this on DO and thermocline. http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...1&site_id=1
Noticed a few more in the archives I that I need to read.


I think that is the case. I have no other reason why HSB would die from a winterkill but RBT in the same pond survived.

Both species died from low DO under the ice, but the number of HSB that died was over 5x greater than the RBT. Both fish were about the same size, so that's one more variable that gets tossed out the window.


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I have not seen a siphon drain. Would like to see adiagram of typical installation.

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Originally Posted By: kal
I have not seen a siphon drain. Would like to see adiagram of typical installation.


http://www.ponddampiping.com/syphon1.html

And a guys picture sequence of his install;
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=126191&fpart=1


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