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I'll start by saying I'm new to this forum. A friend of mine has a fairly large pond in South East Ontario (about 1/3 mi. long, 1/10 mi. wide) that he's interested in managing a little more actively.

It has a fairly good mix of habitats, but is probably best suited to SM Bass. It's about 30-40ft deep with a flat, featureless, probably muddy bottom. The edges are mostly rocky with fast, deep drops and the back end is fairly shallow with a good mat of lillypads in mid to late summer. About 10 or so years ago he had a really bad Rock Bass problem. Not many SM Bass, and a very rare LM Bass. Over the years, selective harvesting of the RB has produced a very robust population of SM Bass, though he's been worried about the size mix. The LM have all but disappeared - one hasn't been caught in several years. Within the past few years, Bluegill (at least I think they're bluegill - might be some other variety of sunfish) have been introduced and a couple of pike (we boated the first one last year - but think we've been bitten off once in the each of the two years prior). And two years ago he stocked with a few hundred LM Bass. I think he'd like to have a wide variety of fish in the pond (LM and SM bass, perch, bullhead catfish, bluegill/sunfish, forage fish (mud minnows), an occasional pike, etc.).

So like I said, it's a pond that is probably best suited to SM Bass. Does anyone have any general suggestions for a good mix of fish species and maybe some advice on how to improve habitat for LM bass or other fish species in certain sections of the pond, like what to look for in terms of natural structure and how that might be improved with the addition of artificial structures or the like for fish like perch and/or LM Bass? Also, is there a rule of thumb for selective harvesting of SM Bass populations? If there's a large population of SM between 5" and 10" and a few larger ones between 16" and 23", should he be harvesting some of the smaller ones and what size should he target?

Thanks for any advice.

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Howdy, macco, and welcome to the forum.

My math comes up with something like 21 acres - a nice sized piece of water. It's interesting that LMB have had problems in this water while SMB have done well, given that the norm is for LMB to out compete Smallies. How far North is it - between all the lakes or North of Lake Ontario?

Walleye immediately come to mind as a species that I think would do well (even if they don't manage to spawn successfully in the pond) for your friend. Is that what you meant by pike? My initial mental response to "pike" was to think Northerns (which should also do well in such a pond, I believe).

If the pond is in between Erie, Ontario, and Huron, RES may be able to to OK in it. They manage alright in the lower half of Michigan's LP, especially in larger bodies of water closer to Lakes Michigan and Huron (due to climate tempering effects).

Dr. Dave Willis and our Northern tier of U.S. PMs should have some good ideas and info for you.

P.S. On my one vacaation there, I found southern Ontario delightful. We travelled through it on smaller roads like routes 23 and 9. It seemed like about 19 out of every 20 farms had a Maple Leaf flag flying out in front of the house, and the 20th one had an American flag. You don't see 1 out of 20 places flying ANY flag down here.


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I'd manage the pond for SMB and forget the LMB.

Some Northern Pike could provide good trophy fishing and axuillary control along with the SMB of panfish.

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I suggest you call Bob Lusk about the situation as he managed an upper NY lake much like that described.

BTW welcome to the PB Forum. You have an interesting project.

Often LMB don't do well that far north. Also when there are LMB and SMB in the same pond the SMB don't do as well or reproduce. See this link.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000601;p=1
















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Thanks for all the suggestions guys. The lake is north of Lake Ontario, but not by much. I imagine it's as ewest suggested in that LMB may not faire that well up there, but I'm no expert.

Shorty, it's funny you mention that article...that's what brought my buddy and me to this forum.

Theo, they're Northern Pike, but I think only a couple have been introduced - they certainly aren't native to that particular pond (I've been fishing it with my buddy for about 15 years, my buddy's been fishing it since he was a little tike, and last year was the first we ever caught one - maybe for as long as he's been fishing it as well). My buddy is a little concerned about them. On the one hand, they might keep the bass populations (RB, LMB, and SMB) in check somewhat, but he doesn't want the NP to take over. Any suggestions on that front would be appreciated. The perch populations aren't what they used to be either. I don't know if that has something to do with the increase in SMB or the introduction of the BG and NP.

Thanks again guys.

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Hi Macco. Just found your thread after a little nudge from Ewest.

I don't have definitive answers for you, but after reading the various posts, I do have a few thoughts.

First - on the LMB/SMB issue. Based on your initial description, it sounds like you have very little in the way of the rooted, submergent aquatic plants. I don't mean the lily pads in the back end that you mentioned. I mean plants such as pondweeds, coontail, etc. Hopefully you know what I mean. In the north country, we don't get very successful or very consistent reproduction and year-class strength on largmeouth bass if we don't have those submergent aquatic plants. In eastern SD natural lakes, we have NO largemouth bass at all in lakes that have lots and lots of smallmouth bass. The only lakes that have LMB are the ones with submergent aquatic vegetation, and we only have a few of those (the LMB do great in them). Based on your rocky description of the shoreline, I'd say you are exactly right on the lake being good SMB habitat.

I am a worrier, and I always worry that smallmouth bass won't control your panfish. They are not as effective a predator as are LMB. Thus, it is safer to have some LMB in there. However, I think you'll need to keep adding some subadults or adults, as they probably won't sustain themselves for the reason mentioned above. I can certainly see the bluegill getting overpopulated without sufficient predation, and I don't think the smallies can control the bluegills by themselves.

Our smallmouths tend to go toward high density, slow growing fish. Based only on what you told us, it does sound like a lot of 5-10 inch fish, with few larger ones. We do a lot of harvest on smallmouths in our ponds around here. Generally speaking, we take everything up to 12 inches, and release the larger ones. What worries me in your case, though, is maintaining sufficient predators to keep the various panfish species in check. While small smallmouths are often not very piscivorous (they often eat a lot of insects and crayfish), they may help the overall predation. As I said earlier, I probably manage too conservatively, but I sure hate to see the panfish get out of control. I guess if you plan to continuously add a few subadult/adult LMB to be your predators, then selective harvest of the small smallmouth bass would be good.

High densities of northern pike can indeed be hard on your panfish community. I've got examples where too many pike really decimated bluegill and yellow perch populations. You didn’t list an email address. If you shoot me an email, I’ll send you a little information on those case studies.

However, a low number of pike actually may not be bad for you. They may thin the small smallmouths, and help keep the sizes up on them. The pike probably crop yellow perch before any of your other fish (bluegills or rock bass) because they will feed on torpedo-shaped fish before they feed on saucer-shaped fish. If pike abundance starts to get high, then you’ll probably want to target them for removals (angling, trapping). Only time will tell on that one.

What is your attitude toward rock bass? I know they are disliked some places, but to me, a big rock bass is a cool fish.

OK, that’s about the extent of my thoughts.


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Thanks for your replies everyone. I really appreciate your thoughts on this matter. As you probably guessed I am the buddy who owns the lake so I'd like to tell you a bit about the past, our current situation and our goals for the future. I think the lake is approx. 25 acres and described very well by macco. It was originally bought by my grandfather many years ago and holds great sentimental value. He managed it the old fashioned way and until he dies in 1980 it was in fantastic fishing condition wiht primarily SMB, some big LMB, perch, bullhead and the ever present rock bass.
After he passed away we didn't go to the pond for about 15 years and without his management we discovered a bit of a problem. The SMB had completely taken over save for a few pockets of perch. Of course the rock bass were still there but they have never been big, none larger than 5 inches. We are very happy having SMB as the primary fish in hte lake but the problem was they were all very small. You could sit out in the boat for an hour and catch 100 smallies, but they would all be between 4 and 8 inches. We could drop a bare hook in the water and literally see 50-60 4-6 inch SMB fighting over the bare hook. We would catch 1 or 2 lunkers a day of 18-21 inches, but the rest were very, very small as I described.
So the goal is pretty simple, we'd like the SMB to be the primary fish in hte lake but obviously would like to increase the average size of the catch. Fewer fish of a bigger average size. We'd also like to catch an occasional perch and some LMB as well. It should be noted that it's a long trip and we only go up for one week out of every year, so our ability to truly impact this situation must be analyzed as well.
About 8 years ago we started squeezing every single rock bass brought into the boat, at least 100 every day but probably more. About 5 years ago we began doing the same to smallies of 7" or less while releasing the larger ones. We added 4 northern pike 5 years ago, about 300 bluegill juveniles 3 years ago, and 1000 mud minnows and 300 LMB of 1-2" 2 years ago.
We notcied last year that the LMB seem to have survived and are living close to the shore in schools. There are definitely pockets of bluegill in spots on the lake but they are not that numerous at this point. However I am very concerned about the bluegill overpopulation several of you have mentioned. Rock bass are still absolutely everywhere. Hundreds can be caught at will all day long. The average SMB size has improved and we are catching more 12,14, 16 inch fish to go along with our 4 or 5 20 inchers a day. you can still drop your bare hook in and have 20 SMB of 4-6 inches hitting it while 20 more watch.
Any advice on how to achieve our stated goal would be very much appreciated. I'm so glad I discovered this site and I'm looking forward to some more exchange of ideas

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Welcome, Ontario!

I think we're now down to the point where I can only give my best guesses, and I haven't seen the water body. So, take everything with a grain of salt. However, if it was me, here is what I probably would do.

For the panfish, I like to try and shift the populations toward larger individuals. Thus, if your harvest strategy is taking out the biggest ones, that may be counter-productive. Male bluegills mature at smaller sizes when the big males have been removed. Once they mature, their growth slows down and they are not likely to get as big. So you want to favor 8 inch and longer bluegills. I haven't worked much with rock bass. However, as with the other panfish, I think having the big ones would help suppress the small ones.

So, what can you do to thin the small panfish? Well, you might try doing it mechanically - with nets or seines. Your lake is not that big, and you probably can have an effect. Put the big ones back and remove the small ones. However, it's generally a lot easier to have predators do the job of thinning for you. Let's run through your predators. I already mentioned that I don't trust smallmouths to be a good control for panfish. However, the bigger ones certainly eat fish and can help. Your best predator on the small bluegill/rock bass is the largemouth bass. If you know for a fact that they don't reproduce and survive well in your lake, then I really like your idea of maintaining a population with occasional stockings of adult or subadult largemouths. They probably need to be at least 10 inches long to survive after stocking. The 10-12 inch largemouths will really pound on the 1-2 inch bluegills and rock bass that are spawned each year. They’ll reduce panfish abundance, panfish growth will increase, and you’ll get bigger panfish. As long as the northern pike numbers are not high, they can be a good predator for you. However, northerns like to eat big prey, and they may compete with you for the big panfish (given a choice, they like prey items that are 33-40% of their own body length). If you catch a 10 pound plus pike while angling, I’d say it probably is best to remove it (fillet out those y-bones and have a good meal!). The 20-24 inch pike will do more for your current lake management needs. If they northerns start reproducing and become abundant, then you'll need to crop them down too. Too many northerns is a BIG problem.

I believe that I would keep up the harvest of small smallmouths. I say that for two reasons. First, as I already mentioned, they are not all that piscivorous at small sizes. More importantly 15-20 inch smallies are so darn much fun that I'd want them in my lake! \:\) It sounds like your smallies will overpopulate and stunt without selective harvest of the small ones. That is my most common management problems with smallies in ponds and small waters around here.

OK, I hope that helps a little more. I tend to think of pond management in longer terms than a lot of the pond owners at this site. I’ve got one pond I manage that is about 10 years old. We introduced bluegills into that water about 7 years ago, and we caught our first honest 11 inch bluegills out of that pond this year. Some things just take time!


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Great info guys. Thanks a lot. I think we have a pretty clear plan going forward. We'll let you know how things progress.

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Progress reports are much appreciated by all the regulars on the Forum. Thanks.


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Thanks to everyone's great ideas I am in the process now of trying to buy some largemouth adults for the pond. If that doesn't work we will ask around when we get up there and hire some local kids who know other lakes in the area to catch some for us and bring them to the pond. There is one hatchery that has LMB but they are only 1" and she doesn't have very many. I may have to go back up in the fall to gets some of 2-4". She said she has no adults (that she is willing to sell I assume) but I am gonna keep asking.
We are going to start squeezing small and medium bluegill and rock bass and every SMB under 8". All others will be released. Hopefully this harvesting combined with the addition of some LMB will do the trick for us.
Thanks again everyone! We will keep you posted on our progress.

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So all, thanks again for all of your help and suggestions. Myself and Ontario Smallies were up in the Great White North this past week and stocked an additional 150 LMB in the pond. We'll see how they've done in about a year or two. Sorry, but we don't have any pictures of the event.

As for the health of the pond, everything seems AOK. Ontario Smallies had stocked with a few hundred LMB 2 years ago (I believe he mentioned that in his previous post). We caught a few of them this year, which was a kick (about 10 or so). They weighed in a around 1 pound or so (about 10"+/-) and looked very healthy. From what we read, that seems to be a pretty good growth rate for LMB, so we're pretty happy on that score.

The SMB population looked good as well (ranging between 8"-18" plus some small guys), although we didn't catch quite as many in our honey holes as we had in years past, but did catch quite a few in some areas that we had previously not fished. I should mention that we did make our trip quite a bit later in the year (we usually had gone up in mid to late June) so there could be other reasons for that. We caught probably about 50 to 60 SMB over the week, maybe more. It's tough to judge when the numbers are high.

The Rock Bass (RB) population, it seems, has suffered a bit - we still caught a bunch, but not like we used to. RB historically had been the largest population in the pond, but it seems that Pumpkinseed sunfish (PS) has taken over as the most abundant species.

We had noticed the PS presence in the pond 2 years ago - and thought they were bluegills. After a little research, we've determined that they are indeed PS and they're all over the place in that pond. In some areas you put a red hook in the water and about 10-20 will get drawn in like filings to a magnet. We're fairly confident based on some of the columns we've read by Bob Lusk that their presence as forage is good and population level is ok for both the SMB and LMB, but any additional guidance on that would be appreciated. We were culling any PS we caught while we were there (not really that many - maybe a few dozen in 20 acres), but have determined that that probably isn't very bright - and we'll just leave them be next year and hope they make a lot of bass food for the LMB and SMB.

Didn't catch or even hook up with a NP this year. So that seems to be a non-issue for now.

Did catch a few yellow perch, so they're still around as well.

All in all, everything seemed good to me, but like I had mentioned previously, I'm no expert. If you guys have any comments or suggestions, let us know.

One thing I had talked over with Ontario Smallies was to make up some artificial reef structures and stick them in some of the deeper water (20' or so) that doesn't seem to hold many fish. Maybe some X-mas tree reefs or something similar. What do you think?

Macco

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The structures would be a good idea. Try to cover the range from bottom to 6 ft (or below max ice depth). If the SMB and LMB are fat and you are catching a few less then they are probably moving toward a balanced status across all size ranges. This would be further confirmed if the forage in the smaller sizes (1/4 to 1/3 the length of the most numerous sized bass)are less than they were (small RB #s).

See this thread for great structure ideas with pics.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463#Post92463

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Hello all. It's been a few years since my last post, but Ontario Smallies and I just returned from little fishing trip to the lake, and wanted to give interested parties an update.

The LMB seem to have done very well. It was a two day trip, and I personally caught about 10+ fish like the one in the attached photo, and spent much of one day guiding, so apparently the LMB like what the lake has to offer.

We do, however, have some concerns. We caught a lot of LMB, and not so many SMB. Caveats to this were that we (especially I) really fished more in LMB water (lilly pads, soft bottom with a tree fall or something, etc.) than we did in SMB waters (rocky bottom, rock faces, etc.) That said, these were waters that had historically held substantial populations of SMB, so it was unexpected that we saw so few SMB over the weekend.

We're both probably excessive worriers, but just wanted to bounce this off an expert or two:
1) Is it too early in the year, or the wrong time of year (near the spawn) to make judgements about bass populations?
2) Considering we added the LMB about 5 years ago, how long would you say it will be before a lake this size reaches a new equalibrium?
3) Are we worrying too much about it?

We didn't measure the water temp, so it's entirely possible that we caught the two species on either side of their respective spawns. Bass season isn't officially open on public waters until 4th Sat of June, and I've never been up there this early in the year, so I really don't know how to gauge what happens when. There were plenty of beds, but I'm not sure I can say that fish were actively patroling them (SMB certainly weren't).

YP populations seemed to be just fine, and PS populations were probably okay (I saw them, but didn't present baits that they'd be able to fit in their mouths).

We'll be returning mid to late summer, and will give another update then.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

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Welcome back and thanks for the update.

) Is it too early in the year, or the wrong time of year (near the spawn) to make judgements about bass populations?

That should not make a big difference if you covered the lake fishing and viewing.


2) Considering we added the LMB about 5 years ago, how long would you say it will be before a lake this size reaches a new equalibrium?

Lakes are always changing. If you mean reaching carrying capacity I bet it is there and has been for a year or more.


3) Are we worrying too much about it?

I don't think so. I would worry that the NP and LMB will over time take over and the SMB population decline.
















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Very nice looking northern LMB. A single fishing trip is really hard to make judgements off. Hopefully there is enough different habitat and the pond is large enough to support both LMB and SMB.

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Thanks for the feedback fellas. We'll keep you posted on what we see later this summer.


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