Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Corrective stocking crappie overload

A few years ago I expanded the size of my pond a little. It's now a little over an acre. After it filled I had it stocked with LMB and BG and some fat heads per the fish suppliers recomendations. A year later I put in some channel and the next year against some peoples recomendations, I put in some black crappie. In my defense, I was told that black crappie would not take over a pond but that's exactly what I think has happened. It's actually a pretty good crappie pond now but the few bas I catch look a little stunted. To complicate matters further, the pond does not have a trickle tube and when we get a big rain, I have a pretty good river going around each end of my dam. I don't know if the crappie are the culprit behind my bass problem or if the floods washed out the bass and forage fish. I know I need to reinstall a trickle tube but haven't had a chance (time and money). I really don't want to restock bass before I know what the problem really is. Sorry to be so long winded but I could use the advise of you guys/gals.

Doug,

I'll take a guess...the problem is the crappie. Your pond is way too small for crappie(black, white or purple),unless you can intensively fish/remove and keep their numbers in check...and very few can do that.

I don't see any correlation between stunted bass and your "trickle tube" and that's a term I'm not familar with but assume it is some kind of pipe stand overflow.

It has been reported here that by overstocking predators such as LMB and even HSB you can get the crappie under control...you might want to do a search on crappie and read those previous posts.
Sorry, but you will not find many fans of crappie in small ponds herein simply because of the problems you have described.

As far as your dam situation, hopefully what you are describing as rivers going around each end of the dam are actually natural spillways for overflow. That water should be directed away from the base of the dam in order to prevent serious erosion problems and eventual loss of the dam. That's very important.

Wouldn't it actually be better to stock crappie in a small pond as opposed to a large lake? Being that control of fish in a large lake easily becomes expensive if not near impossible in certain situations. You could try to remove the crappie yourself but in most lakes thats impractical unless you had large numbers of outside help. Plus wouldn't it be easier to catch and remove crappie in a small pond as opposed to a large lake? Either way, in the end a smaller pond is easier to retonone if you change your mind.

It would seem, to me, that having a small lake/large pond(1-5 acres) would work better for crappie, if money is lacking. Than a large lake would in most cases. Either you could spend more money to manage your pond or you could work harder to control the fish yourself. And either way you would need to have at least some of either thing, time or money.

Wouldn't a large lake of the recommended size for crappie eventually stunt the same amount of times as most smaller bodies of water? Wouldn't it just end up taking longer and being even harder to drain and retonone? Plus wouldn't it probably have a higher chance of getting "other unwanted" fish and then larger versions of the same problems that affect smaller lakes?

This post has unofficially been hijacked. I wouldn't know which crappie post to add it to so this is the lucky one. Hopefully we can uncover some more crappie answers. (And I don't use those sort of puns on purpose. It just works out that way.)

That's a good question Allchca. There is a small lake not too far from me, it’s about 60ac or so in size. 10 years ago the lake was renovated, retonone was used, structure was added, docks built, BG, LMB, Crappie and I’m not sure, but possibly some cat. I will attempt to get some information on the current condition of the fish. It is a public lake, but not too heavily fished. I need to steal some adult crappie from there anyway.

Whenever I come to the Forum now, I have a Crappie time.

Doug, I have a couple of thoughts and some recommended reading.

1) ML is a major proponent here of natural spillways, which can work well for ponds in many situations. In addition to the precaution he mentions of wanting the overflows to stay away from the dam, you want to have the area that does receive to flow to be impervious to erosion. Some suitable surface materials for these areas, in increasing order of cost (and probably erosion resistance) are A) really good sod, B) heavy rocks, and C) concrete. See spillway disappearing for one man's problems with a spillway that did NOT avoid going over the dam.

2) This really is currently the Crappiest Time in PB history. I have never seen so many discussions on Crappie that did not simply end with "Get rid of them." I believe Crappie may be the next fish that some folks seriously experiment with and figure out what precautions and management measures are needed to allow small pond owners to utilize Crappie to good advantage. ML, for all of his standard (dare I use the term "Tried and True"?) advice above, is probably going to be one of our Crappie experimenters (who knows, 'Lark could end up bestowed with the title "The Homer Swingle of Crappie"). So don't despair Doug, we're gonna figure out how to handle Crappie, and you can be part of the effort.

Here are some of the recent Crappie threads for your perusal:
crappie info for ponds
HSB and Crappie

Doug -- your initial post prompted on additional thought. Just speaking in general, largemouth bass tend to resist outflow currents, while black crappies tend to be attracted to outflows. Now, I'm not trying to say this too "strongly" -- certainly when you have a gulley-washer, everything (all species) can end up downstream. However, in normal pond operations, I stick by my statement.

We managed a 3-acre pond for about 6 years with the largemouth bass-black crappie combination. What was unique was that the next pond downhill was used for walleye culture. Every spring, walleye fry were stocked into it, and every fall it was drained to harvest the large fall fingerlings. So, I had a 6-year test of the fish movement theory! :-) Not once in 6 years did we find a single largemouth bass in the culture pond. However, we always found at least a few black crappies, and usually we found both adults and that year's spawn (the age-0 fish).

Here we go again, did I miss something ?

Doug said he has a "good" crappie pond and is not satisfied with the size of his LMB

ML chimes in with "Your pond is way too small for crappie(black, white or purple),unless you can intensively fish/remove and keep their numbers in check...and very few can do that."

ML's next statement is "Sorry, but you will not find many fans of crappie in small ponds herein simply because of the problems you have described."

Why do you continue to make such statements ? Did you read Grimes post on the ponds he manages ? There is no reason Doug can't have decent LMB and crappie. I'm going to write a simple fact book with the A,B,C's of crappie management disproving misconceptions like yours. My second lmb/hsb/crappie pond is well underway with a sufficient documentation trail for others to follow is they so choose.

Doug, it sounds at though you do need adjustments to get your pond back on track. A weak bgill base is the root of your problem. To improve the LMB habitat, start pulling as many crappie as you can, rebuild the bgill forage base that is lacking. I would immediately stock 200 5-7" adult bgill. You do not need to overstock predators as ML suggests, you need overstocked bgill. Also, I do not think you need to worry about the water overflow, you will always lose a few smaller fish when the gullywashers hit, but for the most part, your general fish population will remain in your pond.

Eastland - Are you planning on puting together an article in PBoss magazine about some of your crappie adventures? You are in the running for title of "Homer Swingle of Crappie". Contact B.Lusk for what would make a good article for PB.

I love crappie, as I think most people who have fished for and eaten them do. It appears that something is always missing in the 'good crappie pond" equation. What is the favorite bait to catch crappie? Since it is recognized that crappie compete with LMB and BG for food, and that they have similar low food conversion rates as LMB, why doesn't anyone ever suggest a much larger forage base of small fishes? Common shiners and TFS(in warmer SE climates) would seem to be part of the recipe. Along with good cover. Where am I wrong?

Bill, first, no titles...I could easily fail in my second attempt at this. HSB & tilapia are part of the mix and are unknown variables in pond # 2. I will gladly present Lusk with material, it's worth a shot, give me a little time to accumulate and summarize my experiences.

Burger, you are on the right tract too...golden shiners are excellent in a crappie pond, they are the # 1 bait and they are also nest robbers in Spring. I'm almost positive that summer tilapia will also take some pressure off the bgill base and provide an foothold against crappie reproduction too.

One last point that I feel is mandatory for a crappie pond, line as much of the bank with gravel as you can. It's hard work, but pays big dividends...bgill spawning activity is virtually non stop when temps are right.

Eastland - You can make the thrust of your first article as being - Small Pond Crappies: The Beginnings OR: Big Crappies in Small ponds.

[QUOTE] [We managed a 3-acre pond for about 6 years with the largemouth bass-black crappie combination. /QUOTE]

Dave- This is what I would like to home in on. In the managed pond, how did the crappie and LMB fare after six years? Were your LMB stunted? Did you have too many crappie? Did Elvis make an apperance? Details please!

Mr. W -- I've posted my opinion about crappies in the past, and usually try to stay out of these arguments. :-) Humor intended, guys! Some folks have obviously had some bad experiences with overpopulated crappies, and others have read the old pond management books that say no crappies in small ponds.

That 3-acre SD pond had a high density of mostly small LMB (most were less than 12 inches long). I'm very conservative when it comes to crappies in ponds, and thus prefer the crowded bass population. I also always use black crappies in ponds, rather than whites. Blacks are better suited for the small waters. Big blacks can live on aquatic insects and zooplankton when overall crappie density is kept low by bass, while white crappies don't do as well. In that 3-acre pond, we consistenly produced 12 inch black crappies. I use the past tense on this pond, as it winterkilled a couple of years back despite the aeration unit. It was a sad day that spring to walk the shoreline and see all those dead 12 inch crappies. Beauties.

When I worked in KS, we also managed a pond there for black crappies. Again, the pond primarily had small bass (on purpose) that were less than 12 inches, but some reached larger sizes down there with the longer growing season. You can still get an occasional 5 pound bass in a pond that mostly has smaller, crowded bass. The few that pop through that feeding "bottleneck" always get big!

OK, that's my 2 cents worth. I'm not saying you can't manage for larger bass and still get some decent crappies. I will say that the safest crappie pond management strategy is to accept the crowded largemouth bass population.

Dave, help me out, describe the bgill populations in your crappie ponds ? In our ponds the LMB are not overpopulated, I will take and post RW's as soon as I get back from my next trip to pond # 1, Whitetail hunting Nov 19th.

Hi Eastland. Good point, and one I should have covered. I need to be like Bill Cody and really work out careful responses before posting. I generally think as I type. Dangerous! :-)

OK, back to your question: neither of those ponds had bluegills! The bass were purposely allowed to become high density, and the goal was to produce those big black crappies. No other fishes were present in the SD pond, and the KS pond had just a very few green sunfish (the LMB nearly had them eliminated). As I said earlier, a simple and safe combination.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating. I've learned many things from pondmeisters on this forum. Perhaps my favorite lesson is that very simple (e.g., female yellow perch only in a pond) or very complex stocking combinations often are made to work by truly interested pondmeisters.

I believe we have three main schools of thought on Crappie (so far):

1) Conventional - don't have Crappie in small ponds (smaller than XX acres of water).

2) Treat Crappie like Forage: Manage Crappie by overloading with stunted bass (to eat lots of small Crappie).

3) Treat Crappie like Predators: Manage Crappie by overloading with small BG, GShiners, etc. (to eat virtually all of the eggs/fry when the Crappie spawn).

Have I missed any?

I think it is safe to say that examples can be found where both 2) and 3) have resulted in good Crappie fishing in ponds. I also don't think we have a definitive, textbook method(s) for managing Crappie down (yet), like the classic BG/LMB formulas.

Theo,

My favorite crappie ponds conform most closely to #3. They all have plenty of shallow weedy areas and structure for small forage species to reproduce in huge numbers.

When my pond is completed, I intend to "raise" only fatheads, Gshiners, gambusia, grass shrimp, and insects. Most of my strategy, work, and money will go into the forage species. They are the real blue-collar workers and real basis of the pond.

If I do a good job, the "white collar" fish... the bass, bream, and crappie, will fluorish. I do not believe in having only 3 or 4 species whare you must rely on predator species also being primary forage. There are too many things to go wrong and you can have booms or crashes before you know what happened.

Thumbs up to Bobad ! I will also add that in a pond containing crappie, the LMB population should be balanced with the majority of adults in the 2-4 lb. range. Thats should not stop a few LMB lunkers from reaching peak weights.

Bobad...look into talipia if you don't have them. So far I see outstanding bgill numbers this fall with tilapia present. I should have a bumper crop of bgill, GS, and gambusia to cripple the early black crappie spawn. Most likely, I will not have crappie yoy.

Doug,

How deep is the outflow water leaving your pond? In a simple assumption I would think it may be possible to lose forage fish in your outflow. In turn that I would believe would effect your LMB growth. Food chain ect. Crappie in a situation with low forage levels would outcompete your LMB. My suggestion would be to study on the most cost/time effective route to repair your overflow then turn your thoughts to fish. Meanwhile fishing the crappie to try to lower numbers hopefully helping on a possible forage strain. Crappie will rebound if you want them no matter how hard you fish them.

Another simple thought if it is not already in place. Try to install structure on the opposite side of your outflow or in a low current area where your forage fish can hang when the water runs out. That may help save some of the forage fish if they are indeed following or washing away with the current.

I fully intend to try tilapia. I already have a source for some free seed stock.

Only problem I can foresee with the tilapia is they may venture into the shallows and eat all the weeds. I have contingencies for that. If they don't die off in winter, I'll make a bunch of minnow condominiums.

My tilapia eat a small percentage of what's growing, for me they are much better at producing forage than clearing my pond to a dirt bottom.

Bobad...cross your fingers they survive the winter, at $10 per lb, you could be sitting nice I'll take $100 worth next Spring, where does your fish truck stop at

I dont understand one thing, other than the size of there mouth, how do crappie and BG differ? I can see how crappie compete with small bass but the larger bass should be able to eat the small crappie the same way they eat the BG. I know crappie take over ponds , and this is bad for the bass. Do the crappie have some advantage over bass, like speed, by this I mean are bass unable to prey on them?

Some crappie, in particular white crappie, may be inefficient at utilizing typical pond prey items. Therefore, they can get stuck at smaller sizes, unappealing to anglers.

Even small crappie can do a major number on baby bluegill, so they may reduce your pond's LMB carrying capacity.

Some people love crappie so much that it doesn't matter that managing crappie may be more labor intensive. That's absolutely OK, of course, but it's important to consider these things before pulling the trigger on a crappie stocking. It can be very hard to turn back.

My personal experience is that black crappie can be a great addition to a pond with proper planning. I think they are a great fish. Unfortunately I have seen ponds where crappie proliferated and the pond needed total renovation.

Another big difference between Crappie and BG is that Crappie spawn very early AND unreliably.

The early spawn means that baby Crappies get first dibs on everything else hatching in the pond, often to the detriment of both forage species and bass.

The unreliable spawn, caused by varying environmental conditions that early in the season (IIRC), means that Crappies themselves are not reliable forage year in and year out for bass.

Theo is right. Even the ponds that I work with that have good crappie fishing have unreliable spawns. One of them has only had three year classes of crappie in the last ten years.