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Joined: May 2011
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Do BG stop growing when sexually mature?? A wildlife biologist told me that once mature, the males will stop growing, and this is what leads to a stunted pond. Does feeding counteract this issue or is he wrong? I definitely don't want to have a bunch of pygmy BG's that I have to continually thin out.
Justin
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May we ask who told you that. That is not true but there is a ounce of truth in the statement. A gross over simplification.
Male BG growth does slow when they are the spawners but does not stop (Cecil's point). Further that is not the same as sexually mature. One reason to leave the biggest male BG in the pond is because they suppress spawning in the smaller but sexually mature males. Because the smaller sexually mature males don't actually spawn due to this suppression they don't spend energy on nest making , guarding and fry protection. Thus they have more energy reserves to grow faster. The actual development of gametes in male BG does effect (reduce) growth to a small degree as that energy could go to growth if not used in the reproductive process. Application of energetics. To my knowledge there is nothing you can do about the latter as they are male BG after all.
There are a number of reasons for a stunted BG pond. Usually it is due to lack of food. It can result from overharvesting of large male BG or other poor harvest mgt. It can result from some other number of environmental matters effecting year class size and predation. It can also be a result of a poor stocking plan. I have not seen stunted BG in a well thought out and properly managed pond.
The comment is a good example of how a little knowledge can be dangerous.
Last edited by ewest; 03/30/12 03:40 PM.
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""The comment is a good example of how a little knowledge can be dangerous."" YES, YES very true. Comment was probably from one trying to impress with their knowledge, but in reality it showed lack of knowledge about the topic.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
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Most biologists are very knowledgeable and I've got some really good ones in my state. A good example of the ignorance of a state biologist that will blow your mind is the following: A Michigan biologist lamented to me that Indiana anglers were wiping out the bluegills in a chain of lakes called the Fortune Lake chain of lakes in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. This was after I requested a lake survey as I was curious about the dynamics of the chain after I had fished it. The biologist was basing his conclusion on the lack of large bluegills electroshocking in August. There was no evidence of gill netting in the survey just electro shocking. I found that pretty silly considering I had fished the lake in August, and all the large bluegill were suspended at 25 feet and there was no shortage! (Too deep for an electroshocker boat). A 2 pound bluegill was caught by another party while we were there. I also asked about the 1/2 to 1 pound smallmouth we caught with the bluegills at that depth, that were actually so numerous they were annoying. He told me he wasn't aware of a significant smallmouth populations in the chain!  My guess is the man had the academic background but hadn't done much fishing so he had no idea about the habits of bluegills in deep lakes.
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 03/30/12 09:00 PM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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I was asking questions of one of our state fisheries biologists last year, and he asked if I had heard anything regarding the attempts supposedly being made to hybridize LMB x BG. I thought he was kidding, or just kind of feeling me out at first, but I think he was serious. He was very nice, and took the time to answer all of my questions, but the conversation left me wondering.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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THanks everyone!! This was a local biologist from a forest preserve. He was at my place to help me with establishing native plants around the pond. I told him that I just placed the order for my 1st stocking for this 1 ac pond. I ordered 350 3-5" BG and 150 2-3" PS(too far north for RS) along with CC,FHM,GS. I'll stock 5-8" LMB in the fall.
He said that I'll have a pond full of stunted fish regardless if I feed or not. He recommended cancelling the order and substituting HBG instead and then add 3-5" BG in 3 yrs to establish a forage base for the LMB. THis goes against everything that I've learned from you guys on this site. I really would like to have big BG, but I think I'm going to stick with my original order....what do you think?
Justin
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Stick with your original idea! Maybe he was a transplant from Michigan.  I do know they don't recommend planting bluegills and bass in Michigan ponds and push hybrids. They claim it's a just a matter of time before the bluegills stunt. I guess they don't believe people can manage their own ponds.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Trap
I don't know that you are too far North for RES. Coach B is in Michigan and has RES doing well in his fishery. Not sure they'll make enough of a forage base for you LMB, just saying I don't agree you are too far North for RES to be a part of your fishery.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau ![[Linked Image from i1261.photobucket.com]](http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii582/teehjaeh57/I_subscribe_zps69249d43.gif)
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I think Cecil is correct ! Bingo - now we have a good idea of why.
A couple of points. Most state and fed biologists are good guys trying to follow policy. Keep in mind that most times they have to keep advice and comments as simple as possible because they are helping people with little if any understanding of fisheries science. Same for the state level publications - lots of good knowledge but often dated and simplistic. Why because of budget and audience and policy goals (food production not recreation) not because they are not good biologists.
My point is the more you know the more you can sift through all the advice both good and bad and thus make your best decision. Always question simple answers that don't sound right.
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Stick with your original idea! Maybe he was a transplant from Michigan. I do know they don't recommend planting bluegills and bass in Michigan ponds and push hybrids. They claim it's a just a matter of time before the bluegills stunt. I guess they don't believe people can manage their own ponds. This is the explanation that I believe to be true. And, based on personal observation, I agree with it. Guys, remember that although those of us on this forum may take on an active role in their pond's management, we are but a tiny fraction of the number of pondowners across the country. What I see around here in the vast majority of cases is no management at all, or incomplete management at best. Most folks idea of pond management is mowing around the bank, removing all the BG you can, (because after all, everyone knows you can't damage the population of BG), returning every single LMB, stocking large numbers of CC, adding dye to the water to prevent that pesky "moss", and throwing out some stale bread, or, in the more enlightened cases, some inexpensive floating Catfish food. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between. If I can see this, then I'm sure the fisheries biologist can also, and I think they choose the easiest path.... stock a fish with little reproduction, vs. educating the public about the correct procedures needed to sustain and improve their private ponds. I'm curious as to what you guys see in your areas, regarding pond management. And I'm not talking about those with which you may personally interact, or help educate. Here in my shop, the PB poster with the sunfishes' hangs on the wall, and it never fails to start a conversation about fish with my customers. After a few minutes I can get a pretty good idea about an individual's management ideas, and most aren't pretty. I believe that those of us here at PB are a minority of pond owners, and while the fellowship here is enjoyed by all, I have to ask myself if we are a little removed from most real-world scenarios. Preaching to the choir is always appreciated, but the masses need ministering too also.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Lunker
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You cannot mix politics and science - the state guys have to play by the rules.
A high level state fisheries biologist once told me that what he tells me in private, cannot be discussed in public.
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)
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Stick with your original idea! Maybe he was a transplant from Michigan. I do know they don't recommend planting bluegills and bass in Michigan ponds and push hybrids. They claim it's a just a matter of time before the bluegills stunt. I guess they don't believe people can manage their own ponds. This is the explanation that I believe to be true. And, based on personal observation, I agree with it. Guys, remember that although those of us on this forum may take on an active role in their pond's management, we are but a tiny fraction of the number of pondowners across the country. What I see around here in the vast majority of cases is no management at all, or incomplete management at best. Most folks idea of pond management is mowing around the bank, removing all the BG you can, (because after all, everyone knows you can't damage the population of BG), returning every single LMB, stocking large numbers of CC, adding dye to the water to prevent that pesky "moss", and throwing out some stale bread, or, in the more enlightened cases, some inexpensive floating Catfish food. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between. If I can see this, then I'm sure the fisheries biologist can also, and I think they choose the easiest path.... stock a fish with little reproduction, vs. educating the public about the correct procedures needed to sustain and improve their private ponds. I'm curious as to what you guys see in your areas, regarding pond management. And I'm not talking about those with which you may personally interact, or help educate. Here in my shop, the PB poster with the sunfishes' hangs on the wall, and it never fails to start a conversation about fish with my customers. After a few minutes I can get a pretty good idea about an individual's management ideas, and most aren't pretty. I believe that those of us here at PB are a minority of pond owners, and while the fellowship here is enjoyed by all, I have to ask myself if we are a little removed from most real-world scenarios. Preaching to the choir is always appreciated, but the masses need ministering too also. I think you hit the nail on the head. And like I said I believe most fisheries biologists are quite knowledgeable, at least the ones I know are in my state.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Stick with your original idea! Maybe he was a transplant from Michigan. I do know they don't recommend planting bluegills and bass in Michigan ponds and push hybrids. They claim it's a just a matter of time before the bluegills stunt. I guess they don't believe people can manage their own ponds. This is the explanation that I believe to be true. And, based on personal observation, I agree with it. Guys, remember that although those of us on this forum may take on an active role in their pond's management, we are but a tiny fraction of the number of pondowners across the country. What I see around here in the vast majority of cases is no management at all, or incomplete management at best. Most folks idea of pond management is mowing around the bank, removing all the BG you can, (because after all, everyone knows you can't damage the population of BG), returning every single LMB, stocking large numbers of CC, adding dye to the water to prevent that pesky "moss", and throwing out some stale bread, or, in the more enlightened cases, some inexpensive floating Catfish food. There are of course exceptions, but they are few and far between. If I can see this, then I'm sure the fisheries biologist can also, and I think they choose the easiest path.... stock a fish with little reproduction, vs. educating the public about the correct procedures needed to sustain and improve their private ponds. I'm curious as to what you guys see in your areas, regarding pond management. And I'm not talking about those with which you may personally interact, or help educate. Here in my shop, the PB poster with the sunfishes' hangs on the wall, and it never fails to start a conversation about fish with my customers. After a few minutes I can get a pretty good idea about an individual's management ideas, and most aren't pretty.e I believe that those of us here at PB are a minority of pond owners, and while the fellowship here is enjoyed by all, I have to ask myself if we are a little removed from most real-world scenarios. Preaching to the choir is always appreciated, but the masses need ministering too also. To be quite honest.....this is how I was planning on managing my pond, minus the CC and dye!! Am I in trouble? Maybe I am a candidate for HBG.
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You cannot mix politics and science - the state guys have to play by the rules.
A high level state fisheries biologist once told me that what he tells me in private, cannot be discussed in public. Very true George. If they go out on a limb they risk losing their jobs. In my state the stated position of the fish and wildlife division to produce quality size bluegill is the more bluegill you remove from a fisheries the more food there is to go around, and it's as simple as that, based on how many times proposals to create a bag limit on public waters is shot down in the state. However I can't believe all our fisheries biologists go along with that antiquated thinking, especially with all the new research that has come along in the last ten years. It also may have to do with keeping regulations simple vs. a document that is so complicated you almost need a law degree to comprehend it, which IMHO is the case in Michigan. (There I go picking on Michigan again!) The truth be known I love Michigan and got my fisheries degree there from one of the junior community colleges everyone wants to make fun of. Funny thing is when I transferred to a university in Indiana, a year was all I could stomach as it was definitely inferior to the community college in Michigan.
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 03/31/12 10:03 AM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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[
To be quite honest.....this is how I was planning on managing my pond, minus the CC and dye!! Am I in trouble? Maybe I am a candidate for HBG. If you want to be able to catch some decent Bass along with your BG, then you probably wouldn't be happy with HBG. Just be aware that harvesting BG will need to be done selectively. This is where the problem lies in my area, as the generally accepted policy is to remove all BG, in the hopes of reducing the population enough to prevent stunting. Continual removal of the biggest BG can have a negative impact on the overall size and quality of the remaining fish. I think you'll be okay, just practice selective harvest, return the biggest males, (I tend to return exceptional females also, I just can't help myself), feed your fish a high quality feed, and keep an eye on excessive aquatic growth and water quality.
"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"
If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Different strokes for different folks. Sparkplug has it right. However don't entirely discount the dye. I use Aquashade in ponds that are artificially fed and the ponds are unisex in that there is no spawning wanted or needed. This is primarily my largest grow out pond of female yellow perch and male bluegill. There are pellet feed smallmouth in the pond but they don't reproduce well in the pond and will be reproduced elsewhere.
The dye keeps the macrophytes and phytoplankton down that could get out of hand due to the heavy feeding.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Cecil, you hit the nail on the head with the dye and what you are doing with it. Feeding and the fish in the pond aren't reproducing (much).
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