Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Big BG management plan needs advice

This question pertains to a project involving the raising of big BG in a small pond. IF a 10" BG was hauled from this pond in the future, I would consider the project a success. Most PB veterans are aware of the project but for the newcomers, here is a link.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000519


Initially, the plan called for stocking male only BG. That was short lived as I now have YOY BG so some female BGs are obviously part of the mix. To help control/prevent overpopulation of BG, I'm going to use the approach as noted in this post by Dr. Dave Willis:

Dave Willis
Lunker
Member # 267

Member Rated:
posted February 10, 2003 11:17 AM
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Hello to all.

In the "north" country, we would have called your original pond situation a "panfish option." Sometimes we purposely crowd largemouth bass, resulting in a higher density of primarily smaller (lots less than 12 inches long) bass. They tend to grow slowly, and often are a little thin. This high density of small largemouth bass will thin out the small panfishes such as bluegill. The surviving bluegills then have a lot less competition for zooplankton and insects, and grow quickly to larger sizes, with many reaching 8 inches and a few reaching 10 inches. This is one way to produce large panfish without a feeding program. We're not real big on feeding programs in the north, because the long winters coupled with increased nutrients from the feed may increase risk of winterkill.

The above post was part of this thread:

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000040


The pond is roughly .21 acres (110' in diameter, one half being 8' deep the other being 12' deep). The pond has about 90 BG, ranging in size from 6 to 7". Even though some BG were taking pellets this year, I would like to maintain the number of big BG around 90.

In following Dr. Willis' post, I would like to hear estimates on the number of 8-12" LMB to keep in this pond to help control the YOY BG. I will cull any LMBs over 12" so they do not prey on my "trophy" BG stock.

Russ

Russ:

I had time to read thru the background thread (the first link) once, and would like to anchor a summary of it with a couple questions (7 pages is a lot to memorize over Saturday lunch):

You have only stocked BG in the 0.21 acre pond? No CC, no LMB yet, no PS, and no sign of any other species?

Assuming the situation is as simple as I think (or hope, at least), BG only, intended to be male BG only but with 2006 YOY BG present, if LMB (both sexes) are used I would start with 20. This is figuring that you will have a breeding population of LMB, that you will be unable to remove all the breeding-size LMB each year even if you wanted to.

An initial starting number of 40 LMB would give you a density about what I stocked, but I'm not sure that many are needed in your situation, so I would start light and increase the number of LMB if warranted.

Are HSB a possibility as the predator? Given the small size of he pond, it might be simpler to manage the BG numbers if you had strict control over the predator population. A drawback would be that the HSB would likely not be as efficient at BG control as LMB, a plus would be that you could leave larger HSB in the pond with no threat to your adult BG population.

Russ I think some of that very good thread is not applicable to your situation. The question is do you want LMB ? If so then we can talk about that. If not my advice would be otherwise. In a small pond you can be the balancing agent where that is not a good option in larger ponds like that thread is about. You should think about the possibility of seining , trapping and a couple other alternatives for predators and reducing BG fry/yoy. LMB are very hard to control in small ponds even for the suggested purposes.

Theo and Eric,

Here is the rundown on the fish population in the pond. The only fish stocked in the pond were the BG and a couple pounds of FH minnows HOWEVER, the pond does contain LMB. There are six 10" LMBs that I know of and I believe the intermittent stream that feeds this pond was the avenue of entry. To my knowledge, no other fish species are present in the pond.

In addition to having YOY BG, I also have 2" LMB. I do not know if these were the result of a LMB spawn OR they slipped in through the stream access. The stream is both a blessing and a curse.

Eric, to suppliment using LMB to help control the BG population my farm fish license does allow seining and trapping. As a last resort I can always drain it, cull the undesirables and reboot with the male BG I had hoped to start with initially.

Theo, because of my inexperience with fish and ponds I would be hesitant to introduce another species into the mix. I'd rather work with what already exists in the pond IF it will produce big BG and win me a chance to be bus boy at the 1st annual PB convention. While there, maybe I can get my name in the hat to be Lusk's luggage carrier for a few months.

If the stream is a source of LMB then I think I would try and manage the situation by catch , seine and trap along with supp. feeding of BG. Only if unsatisfied with the results after using that approach for a while would I consider draining the pond.

The best way to grow big bluegill is to crowd your bass. This eliminates competition among the food chain.

Probably the best way to get huge bluegills is to have a more than adequate bass population. A lot of ponds that have too many skinny bass have huge bluegill.

I'm with ewest, if the stream is supplying LMB, you've already (effectively) got a breeding population of LMB to go with the BG. The stream could well be the source of your BG YOY (directly or indirectly, by providing female BG) too; one can't assume it was due to a BG sexing error.

OK, breeding populations of LMB and BG ... I'd add 10-15 small adult/large juvenile LMB and start watching the LMB and BG numbers. Feeding the BG in this small pond will help up their biomass, noticeably I think. Nothing wrong with watching the BG/LMB numbers, getting familiar with them, and seeing how good things go before considering adding another species. I think in 0.21 acres, it will not be hard to control the numbers of either species.

If you stock according to OH guidelines (ODNR and OSU Extension Serv.) of 100 LMB per ac then this calculates to around 21 LMB per acre. However in my opinion to get crowded LMB at the 3"-12" category, you should try to achieve a total LMB density of about 25-30 to achieve heavy predation of the first two year classes of BG. The big problem is trying to get a fairly accurate, annual, estimate of the numbers of LMB present. Probably the best way to determine if LMB density is okay for your goal is to monitor the number of BG that are in the 4"-6" category.

It is very difficult for me to understand why NY state does not allow one to trap OR seine fish in their own PRIVATE pond with out some sort of special permit. I am glad I do not live there. Talk about too much government regulation.

Even though you are in the northern US, I have found that routine feeding BG a high protein pellet during water temps above 55F will consistantly produce large numbers of BG especially if aeration is present and one does not overfeed to the point of causing dense plankton blooms where visibilities are less than 28"-30". These BG are often more numerous and 1" to 2" longer those in ponds where they are not fed. It is easy, even with mixed sizes (6"-16") of LMB present, to get too many BG in a small pond where the higher density of BG limits the amount of NATURAL food for rapid growth. Remember that small bass often compete with intermediate & larger BG and feed on the larger sized invertebrates. Although no harvest of LMB can and often does result in too many bass and BG do not recruit adequately to provide a decent, annual, harvest of large BG. Proper balance is definately the key ingredient and pellet feeding the BG allows room for more operator error and yet still succeed at your goal.

Keep in mind that if you pellet feed then you should also harvest some pellet eating fish each year. Fall is a good time to do that so you do not have as many individuals present to try and survive the harsh winter conditions when food (and often DO in the snowy north) is at its lowest point of the year.

Thank you for the replies thus far.

Some additional thoughts and questions.

BG: A small number of BG were taking pellets up to about two weeks ago but I've suspended feeding due to water temps. There is limited structure in the pond. Currently there are two areas that contain 2-4, 4' artificial christmas trees along with a couple of submerged logs. Should I add more cover to these areas with hopes of attracting more BG to the area for supplimental feeding? Should I use brush piles as opposed to the christmas trees for cover? Right now, the tress look like one big algae mass. I've given some thought to pulling them.

Bass: From shoreline observations and limited fishing catches, it appears that I have a two age class bass stucture, 10" bass and 2" bass. The half dozen 10" bass were residents from last year and have had the opportunity to feed all year(2006) on FH minnows.
I've noticed no other intermediate size bass. I do have the option of removing some 6" bass from my other pond to transplant here. Do you recommend this and should I try to relocate the bass now or wait till next spring?

The pond is set up with two disc diffusers however they have been shut down till spring. A water sample taken 9/7/06 reported D.O. 9 mg/l (method SM18, 5210 Winkler)


Side note for Bill:

NYS Fresh Water Fishing Regulations 2006-2008 pg 5; License Information:

"Persons holding a fishing license or combined hunting and fishing license (including those entitled to fish without a license) may take fish by angling, spearing, hooking, longbow, nets, traps and tips ups; take frogs by spearing, catching with the hands or by use of a club or hook; and take bait fish for personal use, all as permitted by law or DEC"


Farm Fish Pond License: (From DEC website)

Prior to stocking fish in your pond, you should obtain a Farm Fish Pond License from DEC. The license allows the licensee, his immediate family, and his employees to take fish at any time, in any size, in any number, and in any manner as stipulated in his license. The farm fish pond license also serves as a stocking permit, eliminating the need to obtain a separate DEC fish stocking permit which is required to stock fish into any waters of the state.

Dealing with Possible Problems:

Sometimes pond fishing deteriorates because the pond is overpopulated with fish such as bluegills or bullheads. If this occurs, thin the fish down or eliminate the population entirely and restock with a more desirable species. Minnow traps or a fifty foot seine are ideal for removing small fish from a pond. Use of these devices can be specified in the farm fish pond license. If you want to remove all the fish, it may be necessary to completely drain the pond. Hopefully, a drainpipe was installed when the pond was built. If not, you still may be able to siphon water out or employ a large water pump

Russ:

I can share my ltd. experience on BG feeding areas & structure. I cast around for over 2 years before finding a "sweet spot" where the BG like to feed. This location originally had no structure, but is centered on a deep bowl with a deep water route leading to the main deep area, it is flanked by shallower water on both sides. This year I added a nearby piece of structure ("Robby the Robot") to hopefully make large BG (or whatever) feel more comfortable in the area.

I think the BG will tell you where they like to feed; once that location is established, they'll be there (at feeding time) whether there's structure or not.

Thats interesting Theo. I thought BG would react similar to birds near a feeder in that its more attractive to birds if you have cover nearby.

Since my pond is so small, I'll have to see if another location is more attractive to BG.

Russ :

They do react just like the birds in this instance.

With no large predators in the pond BG don't need the protection of cover like wild birds do. If there are large predators (including large predator birds) around the BG will change behavior some what but will still show up to eat (especially the big BG ). If the object is to use LMB to take out many of the small BG then less cover is better. If you feed in the open and have LMB present small BG pellet feeding will decrease but the large BG will feed and have more to eat.

Russ, having lots of dense aquatic vegatation in your North country pond will help keep your small LMB numbers up and keep your large BG well below carrying capcity thus allowing them to grow to around 10" without any supplemental feeding. Our pond has been like this for years and we have lots of LMB 15" and under, our goals are a little different than yours as we are currently working on a quality LMB program but our pond over the years has self managed itself for large BG very well.

Ewest - you might want to email Russ that study on BG in dense weeds, it is a very interesting study.

Shorty how does your pond size compare to Russ'pond of 0.21 ac?. As I am sure you are aware, larger ponds have the ability to produce more large BG. I am not sure how many large BG (('-10") Russ' 0.2 ac pond can produce for harvest each year from just natural foods. Large ponds always appear to produce ample numbers of harvestable fish compared to small ponds of 0.2-0.5 ac.

Russ as I think about your situation, the tendency of the majority or your BG to ignore pellet feeding may be due to the abundance of natural food as evidenced by your (so far) ever presence of fathead minnows. As the LMB population increases to the fatheads and oter natural foods should rapidly decline. Then BG may be more willing to try pellets. IF they then don't convert to more of them eating pellets get back with me and I will provide some helpful suggestions.

Shorty

This pond is now 13 months old. 2006 was the first plant growing season for this pond. Some native plants did establish themselves. I also transplanted bur-reed, from my other pond, which has taken hold quite nicely. Here is a thought, knowing where the BG built nests this year, if I tried to establish vegetation in this area would it reduce the tendency for BG to build nests?

Bill

While walking the pond perimeter yesterday, I did see a few FH minnows and YOY BG. It will be interesting to see what is left next spring.

Eric

You mentioned predators. While sitting by the pond one late summer afternoon, I noticed a ripple in the water, near the shoreline, about 30' away. As the ripple progressed towards me, I realized it was a bass, with the hammer down, chasing three BGs. The bass pursuit continued right past me for another 20'. At this point, the BG banked hard left heading for open water and the deepest area of the pond. They swam about 20', jumped out of the water like dolphins then disappeared! After picking my jaw up from the ground, I stood there amazed at what had just occured.

I sense some kind of differentiation here - feeding BG to grow big BG versus feeding BG to grow forage for bass.

Bill Cody - our pond is 9.9 acres.

Russ - dense vegetation will limit the number spawning areas available for the the BG to spawn in, based on the study ewest sent me and you I would expect only 20% of the mature BG to actually spawn each year under dense vegetation conditions. Just an observation about our pond, I beleive the dense vegetation and the limited spawning areas creates a very long rolling spawn every summer at our pond. It is not unusual to see weeks old BG fry in late in September nor is it unusual to see 3/4" BG fry after ice out in the spring.

Theo you are correct. Same concepts (science) and same elements (need for food, safety and reproduction) at work with basic input factors (thick cover or blocking net vs. no cover , feeding vs. no feeding). You just reverse/change (manipulate) the factors to reach the goal you want.

Very good point BTW.

Have we talked yet about putting heavy harvest pressure in Russ's pond on female BG? I don't know how I missed this thread (you guys are doing great anyway)? But it seems like you could reduce adult BG density by hammering the females at every opportunity. That way, whatever invertebrate the bluegill are targeting will be available for increased growth amongst the males and you can eat the females for dinner.

Bruce taking out the big females should also result in less eggs thus future #s of yoy. IIRC smaller younger females produce fewer eggs based on size ,age and condition than the big females. Thus for the same unit of spawning effort you should get fewer offspring. Also if the smaller females are not able to compete for pellets and are hounded by LMB they should be in worse condition and thus also produce fewer eggs. I don't know how or if early female maturity results in slow growth and size with females like it does with males. If it does then that factor would also reduce egg #s.

Bruce - Very good point about targeting females and if combined with feeding the remaining BG, Russ should be able to achieve his goals in this small pond. And yes, NO French benefits here.

Shorty/Eric,

I received the information sent by Eric concerning dense vegetation and BG. It will be tonights reading during lunch break.

Bruce,

In addition to overcrowding LMB, to help control YOY BG numbers, three other options I've given thought to were; (1) disturbing any nests I find next spawning season, (2) fishing the nests to cull the females(using the recent 3 part PB article to determine sex) and (3) trapping

Questions on LMB as predators:
(1) The few BG caught this past summer measured in the 6.5-7" range. The bass we landed this year measured 10". This topic has been discussed in the past but will a 10" bass chow down on a 6.5" BG?

(2) In my original post, I talked about keeping bass in the 8-12" range. Do you all feel this size limit is where the focus should be?

(3) Going back to my original post and holding 8-12" bass as the acceptable range, what numbers of LMB should I strive for in this small puddle? Theo and Bill have given their numbers, anyone else?

(4) Having hit November, should I stock more bass now or wait till spring?

Many thanks to everyone for all the good information.

Is your water clear enough to disturb nests? Interesting thought. Fishing the nests won't net you many females. You'll get agressive males almost exclusively. The females will be holding just outside of and deeper than the actual nests. Trapping is a great idea.

If you use a good stealthy method like a 1/32 ounce, barbless jighead with a piece of crawler you will catch both males and females. I'd immediately take out any females. Obviously if you make a mistake it won't be that big of a deal. Once you've captured males using the method they will become hook shy, which in this case is desirable. That way you don't repeatedly catch the males with the inherent stress that goes along with it. One nice thing about bluegills is that they are smart enough to avoid your offering, which keeps poachers from taking your fish and allows for them to reach trophy size. By the next year the males will forget what they learned and will be susceptible on the nests again.

Bruce,

This past spring, I had one area of the pond where I counted 13 nests. They were clearly visible and situated 4-5' from shore. Easily within range to disturb the nest.