Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Newbie ... Existing Farm Pond Northern MI

Great site with lots of good information. I've subscribed to the magazine and purchased the basic pond management book.

I have 10 acres of land in Northern MI where I've built a cabin that overlooks a small (1/4 acre) farm pond. I've focused on the cabin and the land over the past two years - I now want to focus on the pond. The pond is dug out w/o any fish (several fishing trips and observation) but has crayfish. I don't know the depth of the pond as of yet (I would guess 6-8 ft.) based on slope of the pond.



Where should I start ...
- water chemisty tests
- draining
- etc.

Thanks!

Welcome to forum TBay,
looks like a nice secluded place.

before i drained it i would determine some basics first. if it were mine, i'd want to know how deep it is, if there is any structure to pond bottom, and estimate what kind of sludge build up there is if any. first thing i'd do is survey pond bottom from little boat. to survey my pond, i use a long telescoping measuring stick (mine is light fiberglass w/ measurements on it), you could also tape a mesuring tape to wood pole or something to that effect.

from there you might take a temp. profile. what feeds (water to) the pond? what kind of drain system does it have? does it get water all year round, would it be easy to refill? from your pic it doesnt look like it has excessive aquatic plants...are there any minnows, frogs, water bugs (i.e. is it supporting life other than catchable fish)?.....editing my post....i just remembered you said it had crawdads...that's great.

just a few of my thoughts.

i'll let others chime in on your need for chemistry.

Dave - thanks for the quick reply. It's hard to tell from the picture but the berm of the pond is elevated 3-4 ft. from the rest of the landscape. I think the water level in the pond is completely dependent on snow/rain levels - might be a small spring. Good suggestion on measuring the actual water depth - I will do this in October as you've suggested.

The bottom of the pond is clay and w/little to no vegetation. I've run several fishing lures/etc. through it so I don't think there is any structure. There are lots of crayfish and tadpoles. In the picture, it's hard to see but there is a definate strong green tint to the water. There are some lily pads on one side of the pond with catails but for the most part it's what you see in the picture.

Initially, I had visions of granduer (i.e., trout pond) but after spending several weeks reading the many posts in this forum it seems that I should probably adjust my expectations. I really want something that my son and nieces/nephews can catch some fish. I'm prepared to drain the pond and have some someone do some excavation as well as add aeration but I'm hoping that someone who has been through this type of challenge will provide "if I had to do it all over again, I would ...". I want to do it right and prepared to spend the $ to do it.



This really is a very informative site and I've been impressed with the caliber and genuine knowledge/respect of the posts.

Thanks!

TBay,
Where are you in N. MI? I'm in the U.P. up by Marquette. I just found this forum since I'm looking for info on pond management.

We just stocked Bluegills last week in a pond that is about 3/4 acre. Until now it has only had minnows, frogs and turtles. What are you thinking of stocking yours with? If you are looing for Bluegills I can give you the guy we got ours from.

Do you have Cormorants to worry about? We've got 'em around us. As soon as we stocked, we saw one checking out the pond.

Good luck on the pond. I'm gonna be at this site often. Seems to have a lot of good info.

rick r.

Rick - my cabin is between Atlanta and Fairview in Northern MI (LP). I had originally hoped for trout but after reading so of the posts in the forum I might reconsider and go with BG and SMB. We'll see, I need to do some habitat improvements first and then I'll stock the fish.

No problem with Cormorants ... I do have a Blue Heron that stops in every so often but doesn't appear to be a problem yet.

TBay: As Dave says one of the most important things to do is get a maximum depth measurement. If you have absolutely no fish including minnows in the pond then I strongly suspect the pond experiences winter kills on a regular basis. If you are not there in winter then snow removal is not a very good option to prevent a winter kill for your sitation. An aeration windmill may be a second option. Windmills left to their own operation with no periodic mechanical checking during heavy winter can be problematic.

I suggest you go out and buy a wire mesh minnow trap. A local bait dealer will tell you where they sell traps, maybe WalMart or Meijers. If it is shiney wire mesh spray paint the trap the color of your pond bottom, brown-green. Bait trap with bread and set in along shore of your pond. Trap will catch some minnows or small game fish if they are present. If you stock the pond with fish, the trap will always be a useful tool in the future to collect and monitor fish populations.


Based on your region and if you can prevent winterkills, I would first stock with yellow perch-minnows and then smallmouth bass. Yellow perch will be a better adapted panfish in your region. Perch - when balanced - will grow faster, get bigger and be easier to catch for that youngster the your photo than bluegills. will If you do not like that combination you can always introduce bluegills.

Bill - thanks for replying ... I want to make sure that I understand your reply. You're suspecting that the depth of my pond is too shallow which is causing winterkill. I can verify this by two different means: 1) measure the depth in the manner that Dave has suggested and 2) use a minnow trap to verify that I have no fish.

Ok, I'll start as you've suggested ... should I also start looking at aeration at the same time or wait for the results of the depth check and minnow trap first? The reason I'm trying to create my list of "to dos" is that I won't be back to my cabin until this October. I plan to do a lot of work but I want to make sure that I've thought through everything and have made preparations.

I like the idea of YP and SMB. What type of minnows do you recommend to support the YP and SMB?

My current "to do" list for this October:
1. Conduct depth check in pond using depth stick in canoe - also check firmness of pond bottom
2. Use minnow trap to confirm that there are no fish presently in pond
3. Use water test kit to baseline pH, nitrates, nitrites, and DO
4. TBD
5. TBD

Any others that I should add to the list?

Thanks!

it reached 112 here yesterday, and is gonna be about 110 today.......whew. nice to come in to AC and yak at fellow pondmeisters.

TBay, based on the combined posts above, i think determining the depth and volume of pond WRT possible winterkills is the first thing to figure out. Its too bad you cant get there more frequently. all the other details (water quality tests etc. will only provide value to you if you are not going to (or dont have to) drain and re-do everything.

when i surveyed my pond, i made and carried a scaled sketch of pond w/ me, and estimated my location and recorded the depth, then made a "quickie" topo map of pond. I made notes where I thought muck accumulation was thickest. this helped me later when estimating pond volume, excavation volumes, and how much material (clay) to import. i knew i was digging.

i cant see any downside to aeration (unless your diffuser becomes frozen in solid ice……it should help keep the pond from complete freezing)....adding it to a pond that is not yet stocked is even better, and as learning on the aeration posts, it will help remove a signif. amount of muck and combat new accumulation.....looks like you could have quite a bit based on all the trees by pond.

I think Bill suggested you stock YP minnows...however, i dont think it would hurt to put in something additional like Gambusia (if they would survive your winters....i dont know), i like those little guys, they do real well here at least.

Hope you find some value in my rambling……

Dave - we've been swimming in the "concrete" pond here in AZ and staying inside watching movies. We don't even say "hot" anymore until mid-October - it hurts to even say the word.

Appreciate the advice ... keep it coming, I like your thoughts on the pond survey. That's exactly what I will do. It sounds like Step 1 is to to really assess the winterkill scenario and to understand what I'm dealing with in terms of the pond physical characteristics (depth, amount of muck on the bottom, any fish life, etc.). Based on my findings, that will determine what needs to be done with the pond from an excavation standpoint. Seems pretty likely that we're talking excavation based on recommended water depth for fish in Northern MI (~15 ft.).

This seems like the best course of action before introducing any fish (as tempting as it is). Assuming my pond has many years of decaying leaves and is relatively shallow (6-8 ft. deep) - will the excavation make a a major change in the water chemisty? Seems like it has the potental to change it quite a bit and perhaps more favorably. Are there any lessons learned on excavating an existing pond? Yes, lots of popular (aspen), oak, and birch surround the pond (i.e., lots of leaves).



BTW, I was researching YP and SMB fish farms in the local area (Northern MI) and they recommended LMB vs. SMB. Is there any logic behind this ...

Thanks!

AZ huh? o.k....no more whining from NorCAL..have been in Tucson in the summer and know.....

Lots and lots and lots of lessons learned on this forum WRT to renovating ponds. too much to list, and a topic for you when you get closer.. there are several "thread masters" here that can provide some links for you when you are ready for that. in fact, as many others here have done (namely Brettski recently) you should start a thread of your project to which we can all chip in and you can keep us posted. in my project, renovation and aeration dramatically improved the water quality, my biggest problem is lack of supplemental water during summer (which I hope to remedy by next year).

i'm not the one to answer yer LMB vs SMB question, but my guess is it has to do w/ your personal goals.. if you want SMB, you are certainly in a climate to support them. Bill's advice is sage whenever and wherever he gives it, he's the man to converse with....there are several here on forum raising SMB with real practical knowledge about habitat, and successful fish pairings (i.e. YP/SMB)....from what i've gleaned it is difficult to have both LMB and SMB (in a small pond) as the LMB eventually take over, so you'll need to decide which way you want to go.

Aerating that pond in winter with no one there to monitor proper winter pump operation will be problematic. Simple problems can occur to inhibit pump operation during ice cover of winter and then no aeration will happen while you are away. Pump could easily damage itself due to check valve problems of sub zero freezing conditions. If you ran pump constantly during winter that may help reduce potential problems. Power failures during winter will throw a wrench in well laid aeration plans.

I did not mean yellow perch minnows. Small or young YP are called fingerlings not minnows. Minnows are species of fish that belong to the minnow family (Cyprinidae) of fish.

Digging the pond deeper will not change the basic water chemistry of the pond. Oxygen concentrations and the pond's annual oxygen budget will be most affected by any pond clean-out and deepening. You should get Managing Michigan's Ponds For Sportfishing; available at MSU extension offices. They recomend MI ponds have 25% of the basin be 15 ft deep and 18ft to 25ft is distinctly better to minimize fish winter kills, esp if snow is not removed during winter. Getting the pond PROPERLY rebuilt will be your first and biggest problem. Bedrock in your location may be a problem for pond depth.

Hatcheries in MI are pushing LMB because:
1. They are easier and more profitable to raise.
2. They work very well with bluegill or hybrid BG as a panfish. Most MI hatcheries sell hybrid BG.
3. LMB will work good with bluegills or hybrid bluegills which most hatcheries in MI push this combination. I will work for you.

I recommend SMB with Yperch because;
1. they naturally and behaviorly work well together and compliment each other. Use bluntnose minnows with YP-SMB. All three naturally co-exist in MI and Canada. Minnows from MI beaver ponds would be a good source for minnows that are able to spawn in a pond. Use your minnow trap for this. Local UP Bait dealers who collect their own fish will be able to help with proper forage fish selection. I can provide names of minnows to search for.
2. LMB have too big of a mouth and eat too big of perch unless one keeps the majority of LMB below 12". LMB with perch results in a lot fewer large harvestable perch.
3. LMB prevent establishment of a good minnow forage base for the perch.
4. SMB are not as prolific as LMB and thus don't tend to over-run the perch population as easily as LMB.
5. SMB at lower and reasonable numbers (when managed) will also heavily prey on crayfish and other organisms to in the end provide a larger forage base for the perch so YP utimately grow better. Good mangement is improtant with this. Minnow trap will help again with this.
6. BG being a warm water fish in upper MI will not grow very fast due to a short growing season whereas YP as a cool water fish will tend to, overall, do better than BG in Michigan's UP.

7. A SMB-perch-minnow pond can be easily converted to a LMB-bluegill dominated pond whenever you chose whereas a LMB-BG pond can not be converted to a SMB-perch pond unless you renovate the whole pond.

Thanks Bill - you've provided a lot of valuable information and I've just placed the order for the MSU publication of "Managing Michagan's Pond for Sportfishing".

I also better understand the rationale for the YP and SMB. I now have plenty of time to research and analyze my pond in Northern MI (lower pennisula) while sitting in the AC confines of my Phoenix, AZ house prior to October (I will be at my cabin in Northern MI for two weeks of bird hunting and pond work).

I'm itching to measure the depth of my pond and setting the minnow trap to confirm winterkill. I do have a lot of crayfish and frogs that should make a good food source for SMB when the time comes.

Thanks again for the assistance!

TBay, The Imlay Fish Farm at Imlay City MI between Flint and Port Huron is a good source for SMB and perch.

Bill - thanks for the info on Imlay. I've also dug up so info on a couple of others in the area as well.

Any opinions on using oxygen bags DIY or having the fish delivered to you? It seems that both are popular options dependent on how many $ are spent on the fish. For small ponds, is it better to go with a more "local" fish farm for delivery rather than the oxygen bag DIY option?

Thanks!

Methods of Procuring fish are mostly dependant on your budget(wallet size) and your time availability. Delivery is usually fairly expensive for my budget. I have never had any problems with my goping to get fish and using oxygen bag method. I always make sure the hatchery workers do not over-crowd fish in bags. Slightly fewer fish than normal in each bag helps insure less travel stress for the fish. I do not trust hatcheries enough to allow them to stock one of my ponds without my examining every fish. Over the years, I have seen way too many fish orders contaminated with unwanted fish. Hatchery workers are human and make mistakes. Local fish farms to maintain good relations, will often replace fish that die if you keep track of numbers and sizes. I'm not sure that remote hatcheries will bother with replacing a few fish.