Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations YP, SMB and... goldfish???

I have a very small (1/10th acre) pond that I plan to stock with FHM, YP and crayfish this spring. I eventually want some SMB but I'm undecided about adding them in the fall of 2012 or waiting for YP spawn stocking them in the spring of 2013. The plan is to tag and manage actual mature predator numbers to within a few fish of a target number.

Now here's the twist... the previous owner put goldfish in. I was hoping the severe drop in water level this past summer, along with Mr. Heron would kill them off for me. No such luck. I've seen several of the buggers that appear to be around 4 - 5". (Yes, a supplemental water source is in the plans.)

I've read enough old threads to know that goldfish are similar to BG from a forage perspective and that YP and SMB are not going to be effective predators on goldfish over 3 - 4" (which I already have). Someone suggested rotenone. In NY rotenone requires a permit specific to the individual application and a licensed applicator to actually do it ($$$). The pond is excavated with no drain. I could pump it but there's no place to put the water. The surrounding land is quite flat and right now the ground is pretty much saturated (sorry Texans ).

So the question is how do I manage or prevent this impending disaster? Is there a way that I can intentionally cause a winter kill? Is there a hope of eradication or at least managing numbers with aggressive culling? Should I try to make lemonade and actually manage them for forage?

Lower your water level as much as possible and add 250-400 pounds of HYDRATED lime per surface acre and it will kill those buggers for ya! Spread it on all wet areas also to kill of any unknow species that may be in the pond/mud.

Let the pond refill and all will be great for a spring stocking.

I agree with what Rainman said. Goldfish are more similar to common carp than to BG. They will get larger than the SMB or even LMB can eat, and will take up valuable biomass in that BOW that could be put to better use.

Even if the ground is flat, all of the water doesn't run to the pond, does it? An electric sump pump will move a considerable amount of water over a period of 24 hrs, but not quick enough to flood an area.

Sorry to hear about your father. I'm glad you got the chance for a good talk. Many, many people don't get (or take) that opportunity.



Why the draw down? With the size of my pond, I can get enough to nuke the whole thing for $20.

Esshup, I'm not worried about the water coming back to the pond. I'm worried about flooding my neighbors. The water table is very high now and will probably remain so until next summer. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see where the water can go.

HYDRATED Lime (Calcium Hydroxide) is far different and far more caustic than Ag Lime (Calcium Carbonate or Crushed Dolomite Limestone).

Hy Lime runs about $7-$10 per 50 pound bag and needs to be very concentrated to shock and kill the fish in order to safely sterilize a pond. When sterilizing a pond, you realy can't OVER apply hydrated lime, but with a significant water depth, you could easily UNDER apply it and never reach the concentration?high Ph needed to kill all the critters.

Also, a drawdown will allow an easier access to cleaing out all the dead fish before the stench becomes overwhelming. (Put some Vick's Vapo Rub in each nostril if the stench makes you wretch...it kills the odor.

Do you think that goldfish will be easy to kill? I doubt so. It's a very close relative to ordinary crucian carp and they are able to live in very bad conditions. I know many old, shallow and sometimes dirty ponds that aren't suitable for other fish but they manage to live there and even survive in winter even despite the lack of oxygen.

I'd try to pump out the water somehow and catch the fish.

I also suggest that you check into the cost of using a licensed applicator. They will sometimes work with you for a reduced cost in small jobs. A little extra cost could be valuable and worth while to get the job done right the first time. As your learning gold fish can be sort of tough to kill. You will be upset to go to the expense and effort to restock only to find there are a few goldfish still present. It is best to reduce the water level as much as possible before treating.

How true that is. I had almost 50 common goldfish in a 5 gallon bucket. From 4" to 10" long. Temps were in the 40's. Only about 1" of water in the bucket, not on purpose, just from rain at the time of collecting them. They sat outside, in the bucket from 4:00 p.m. until mid afternoon the next day. When I dumped them out in the field by the woods at the house, there were still a half dozen that were flipping and flopping around. I'm sure they would have survived if I had dumped them into a pond.

From this point of view, crucian carp (goldfish) is a very nasty fish. By the way, it isn't so easy to catch it with a net. I have a smaller pond and there are mostly crucian carps in it but not only - some perch and few small pikes have been added to control small fish. I tried to catch them with usual fishing rods - good size fish were caught. Then I tried to catch them using various types of fishing nets. Guess how much I caught - LOL, 1 crucian carp only... somehow they are smart enough to avoid nets and other fish traps. There are numerous reports about it.
By the way, these few perch were caught often...

As far as I know, goldfish differs from ordinary crucian carp mostly with it's look. Basically it's the same fish... It means, it will breed more often you want. If you wish to get rid of them, show no mercy and eliminate all of them. With "all of them" I really mean "ALL". Pumping the pond out seems the only suitable reason for me (ok, poison, electricity, nuke and similar actions aren't included).

Note: I have European experience. Maybe these fish behavior is significantly different in USA. Then feel free to correct me and try to avoid my advices

Okay, so the consensus is to kill 'em. I'm fine with that but I have a related question.

I see GSH recommended as forage fish for SMB often. I know they can grow beyond sizes that the vast majority of SMB can eat. What is the difference between GSH and goldfish (carp) with SMB? Both fish should have adults that grow beyond predation.

As for the method of execution, we're only talking about 1/10th acre at full pool here. The hyd. lime could easily accomplish the goal for less than the price of a tank of gas - especially after a draw-down. But, because it is never wise to ignore Dr. Perca, I'm trying to find some licensed applicators.

Thank you to everyone for your responses!

OK, I may be not the best advice giver since I haven't seen live bass of any kind but theoretically I may try to tell you about the life of goldfish (crucian carp).
In case you don't have any predators then after a few years you will have pond full of small crucian carps. They breed often and have lots of baby fish after that. Adding some amount of perch doesn't help a lot - because of their mouth size, they can eat only smaller ones while the large ones breed and breed. Pike is the only solution - it's mouth is large and it grows large itself (and it eats a lot).
In your case largemouth bass could act as a pike because of it's great mouth size. But what about smallmouth bass? Will it be able of eating anything but a tiny ones? Since your pond isn't big, bass probably won't grow very large too. And don't forget that little bass needs other food than live fish and crucian carps will compete with them for the same food...

OK, after some beers maybe it is not the smartest idea to talk about fish but the main idea is - CRUCIAN CARP CAN EASILY GET OUT OF CONTROL.

Manris, the Goldfish will easily grow out of the size range that SMB can eat, both in body length and body height. Godlfish can actually grow to be larger than the SMB. GSH on the other hand only get to 10" maximum, and usually stay smaller than that. They are more slender in shape than a same length goldfish, and have different eating habits - they won't muddy the water.

Also, in regards to the Hydrated Lime. No applicators license should be needed.

Yeah, I was thinking about it after I made the post and figured it had a lot to do with growth rates. GSH stay in the edible zone for much of their lives. After everyone's comments I don't have any doubt that the goldfish are trouble. I was just curious about the details. One could get numerous adults that were beyond predation with SMB and any sustainable forage species, I would think.

I think Bill Cody was talking about rotenone application.

Thanks for the info!

Yes referring to rotenone application. The cost may not be "that much" for a small 1/10 ac pond that is drawn down to low pool or even half full. "That much" is in respect having to do it a second time if you don't get all the goldfish removed the first time. I would get cost estimates from at least two applicators. Someone may 'work' with you on a better price esp if they do not have to clean up the dead fish. I would be interested in hearing the cost estimates for a little water body. Gold fish espcially drab non-speciality ones will get pretty wide bodied a old adults and not very fusiform shaped thus hard to swallow. Golden shiners even as large adults stay pretty fusiform shaped and have no spines, all soft rays; not so with goldfish. Plus as esshup noted when abundant and food gets limited they will cause turbidity issues from searching for food in the sediments which is not good for SMB habitat.

@ Grundulis.....I've been guilty of that too. I keep telling myself......wait until tomorrow.

I go against the consensus and say leave them. It is a small pond and you can fish out the few adults which will remain after a few years. Between YP and SMB I think the goldfish spawn will be pounded into oblivion. Even though subsequent generations will revert to a drab color, they are still slow enough to be eaten. The few large adults left after some years might still be red and nice to look at. I have seen two ponds over the years that started with only goldfish and other smaller minnows and sunfish and after bass were added, they were all but gone after three years. One pond was LMB which I know can handle larger meals but the other had only SMB added and same result eventually. Both of these ponds were around 1/4 to half acre and had tons of goldfish to start and were stunted. After 5 or so years there were just a few really big goldfish left like 15 inches long plus and we could catch them with dough balls or baby bluegill on the hooks.

Addendum. I would change my above opinion if your pond is really muddy due to goldfish rooting in mud or their waste affecting water quality.

Would the hydrated lime mass murder work on bullheads? Or are they too tough?

What causes the lime to stop killing when you want to restock? Dilution or does its chemical reaction peter out?

Bullhead...Hydrated lime used correctly is the cheapest and most effective way to sterilize a pond basin.

The pond can be re-stocked within a day or two... It is the extremely high Ph and shock that kills. Normally a pond is lowered as much as possible and the lime is applied heavily on all wet areas and the remaining pool area. As the pond refills, the H lime is diluted, but even if applied to a full pool (expensive), the chemical reaction "peters out" as you say in 2-4 weeks on average.

Fwiw, I began offering a guaranteed pond sterilization service this year for those not comfortabe or capable of doing it themself.

Rainman, what about dead fish?

If the stench is the issue...removal is almost always a pain....any dead fish left behind will decay and revert back to nutrient.

If stench isn't an issue for a month or two depending on temps.....terresterial will eat most dead fish.