Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations HSB in Hot Summer Weather

Transferring this from a Tilapia Thread ; I want to be able to find it when I have numbers of medium - large HSB in a couple/few years.

Ed's original questions:
George's Reply:
Can I get other experienced HSB Pondmeisters to join in? Bruce, ML, etc.?

Ed, HSB may not grow much over the winter months, but some of them may shock you with their ability to make up for lost time.

Please refer to the following spreadsheet on HSB growth data:

http://www.bizfunctional.com/wipers/archives/sunshine%20II.htm

Your fish should do even better since they are cream of the crop. Look at the variation in growth rates observed amongst fish of the same year class. My fish came from runts that were the remnants of several culls. They still performed extremely well!

HSB = Sunshine Bass ? Haven't seen that before !

When the white bass parent is the female, that's the sunshine bass.

When the striped bass parent is the female, that is a palmetto bass.

Also called the Original Cross and Reciprocal Cross; IIRC Palmetto = Original, Sunshine = Reciprocal.

The HSB was first done with Striper Females, which are harder to obtain and handle to the point of being able to strip their eggs. The subsequent cross uses easier to obtain/handle White Bass Females. Is that correct, backwards, or just wrong, Bruce?

1.At what surface water temp. do you consider lethal when angling HSB? (81 degrees?).

81 degrees is the number that Bruce quoted in a long ago post. It seems like a good number to me.

2.At what water temp. would you expect to loose say 50 %?

The fish loss above 81 degrees seems to be a function of a complex set of variables including temp, fish size, and overall water quality. I don’t have enough data to be able to plot mortality as a function of water temps...but even if I did, without the other major factors of size and water quality, I’m not sure it would be useful. I experience 100% HSB mortality from angling with fish over 3 pounds and temps above 85 degrees.

3. At what temp do you consider maximum for near 100% survival? Using proper angling techniques (i.e. Quick catch and proper release, proper hooks, etc.).

Again, this is subject to other variables, but when the magic 81 degrees temps are reached you must be aware that any HSB caught is subject to mortality.


4.As you mention, larger fish are much more vulnerable to “fight to the death” syndrome. Are there standards you use for say 3#, 4# fish, etc.?

Three (3) pounds seems to be a break point for HSB in my ponds. Above that, angling mortality is seems to be virtually assured in high temps, below that weight I have experienced no mortality.

I would like to again state, that in addition to water temps and size, water quality may be a significant variable in the determination of HSB angling mortality. We have been punished by extreme dry conditions the last two summers. Perhaps, not coincidentally, the first HSB mortality showed up at the same time. When summer rains were plentiful, there was no HSB angling mortality and conversely, when rains were totally absent, 100% HSB mortality in fish 3 pounds and over has been experienced. The pond in which this data is based has a two diffuser aeration system, the HSB are artificially fed, and by all outward appearances the pond has excellent water quality. However, I suspect the lack of flushing from summer rains coupled with artificial feeding sets up a less than healthy water quality condition for HSB, in spite of aeration. This is speculative and without proof, but without aeration, in the same pond, I believe every HSB, regardless of size would also be at risk of angling mortality. The nutrients that build up in the absence of rain, and with artificial feeding may play a role in this question of HSB angling mortality that is currently not understood. This nutrient loading factor may also be a significant contributor to the variability of angling mortality reported by different pond owners.

Here is a very good article on water quality from Aquanic. It points out fish waste as a problem. Especially the higher the fish density. It is not so much the artificial feed which may be left over but that which is eaten , used and excreted (as in more lbs. of fish, no matter the source of food, and thus more waste and more demand by more Lbs of fish to support). I think your water quality point is well made and note there are many aspects to water quality.

http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in/as-503.htm

How long is a 3 pound HSB? I am mentally comparing with LMB (our lone HSB is built like a LMB, wrt body shape) and guessing 18".

I have mentioned proper handling catch and release HSB several times on various threads of the PB forum before, but with Theo’s excellent data consolidation of summer mortality of HSB, it may be appropriate to summarize once again.

Two main issues:
1. Use tackle heavy enough to land fish quickly. I use a minimum of 12# leader on a 5wt fly rod and 16# test on a 9wt. This sometimes causes fish to be leader shy but I had rather not catch a fish than kill a fish. The same line sizes would apply to spin and casting gear.

2. Resuscitate your fish in an aerated live well – this is such a simple concept that I took for granted that everyone knew. Every bass/fishing boat manufactured in the last 20 years have aerated fish/bait live wells – some quite sophisticated.

I further cite personal communication from a fly fishing guide friend on lake Texoma about the use of oxygen under extreme hot weather conditions to resuscitate HSB:

“Some time in the mid 90's bait became very scarce and a couple of the guides out of Mill Creek set up an oxygen system like yours. They used big tubs (watering trough's) and super oxgenated the water like you are doing. There goal was when they found shad to catch as many as they could and hold them over for a week or two. Shad held over exceptionally well and were super lively for an extended period. ie. they found them hard to net to take out of the troughs and put in their bait tanks! With the warming trend that started a year or so later, bait became easy and because of the added cost of the oxygen and large quantities of salt and bait saver necessary for the big tanks they stopped using this system. I bet it will work fine to suit your needs. You don't need a large tank, nor any chemicals to rescisistate your hsb's, just a shot of pure oxygen.”




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Some times we take for granted that everyone knows simple concepts, but that is not always the case.

I should state my credentials that I have been reluctant to do because HSB in small ponds is a new experience for me and I have been in a learning mode, having benefited from knowledgeable and experienced HSB growers such as Bill Cody, Bruce Condello and others.

My experience lies primarily in salt-water fishing, and when I discovered Lake Texoma, and striped bass became my favorite lake and sport fish.

I am sure that most of you know that striped bass are an anadromous salt-water species that have been successfully transplanted into fresh water reservoirs.

The Red River that composes the western arm of the Lake Texoma, traverses gypsum outcrops and is fed by numerous upstream salt springs. Having a high salt content, it is one of the few lakes that have prolific spawns each year, and is well known for numbers of stripers caught annually.

The Hybrid Striped Bass is a cross between a striped bass x white bass (Palmetto bass) or a reciprocal white bass x striped bass cross (Sunshine bass). The white bass is a hardy species that survives in almost any extreme water condition, causing the HSB to be a much hardier species that it striped bass parent.

Since my experience of some 25 years fishing for striped bass, my HSB program has heavily depended on the striped bass analogy.

I kept records of each trip, sometimes as many as 100/year, some in detail - others not, from 1989 – 2000, noting air temps, near surface water temps, water clarity, numbers and locations of fish caught, kept or released. I soon realized that each year became more predictable and record keeping ceased.

Development of my fly tying innovations and tackle/techniques have been cited in three national and one Australian fly-fishing publication.
My flies and techniques are noted on two national fly fishing websites and one
Australian, and are in use in many places around the world.
These references area available to anyone by personal message.

Pardon the rambling, but I believe it important to document the potential of HSB in small ponds, which are proving to be hard fighting with low mortality, when grown and handled under the correct procedures.

Namely;
1. At what surface water temp. do you consider lethal when angling HSB? (81 degrees?)

There is no set lethal temperature. Remember that when water is warmer it loses some of it's ability to hold dissolved oxygen. HSB survive without angling in temperatures well into the 80's, but when you combine this with the stress of angling, lower oxygen, and long fights, these fish can and DO die.


2. At what water temp. would you expect to loose say 50 %?

50% is a high number. I'd say long fight at 81-85 degrees might see a mortality rate this high.


3. At what temp. do you consider maximum for near 100% survival? Using proper angling techniques (i.e. Quick catch and proper release, proper hooks, etc.)

To assure survival, I don't angle for my HSB at water temperatures above 75.


4. As you mention, larger fish are much more vulnerable to “fight to the death” syndrome. Are there standards you use for say 3#, 4# fish, etc.?

When HSB reach about 20 inches, the "death curve" starts to steepen.

Good job, Grasshopper.

Additional tips in addition to George's already excellent post.

1. You can increase oxygen available to fatigued muscle tissue by moving fish through the water (FORWARD) with it's mouth held open, if you don't have pure O2 available. It definitely helps. Keep in mind that a fish with massive lactic acid buildup essentially goes into a cramp. He can't recover if his mouth is cramped shut. I've seen this where you try to release a warm water captured hybrid and he gets a curve in his back and his mouth is locked shut. You put him in the water and he just lays there. He's suffering from oxygen deprivation just as much as if he's sitting on the bank. Maybe even more so. The fish on the bank is just drying out. The one in the water is suffocating.

2. HSB, and other fish as well, probably have significantly higher mortality if some of their handling occurs on a boat deck, or on the ground. Removing the slime layer is known to produced
some delayed mortality in addition to the immediate mortality being discussed above.

Great Info, everyone.

George, you may have only done HSB in ponds for 4 years, but I think you have racked up a lot of experience with them in that time (including some leading edge work). Combined with your Striper experience, your Morone Bona Fides are pretty impressive to a man who's sum of experience is having seen the same HSB twice - or to anyone else.

I thought you folks might find this interesting. It was to me. www.dnr.in.gov/fishwild/fish/wiper.htm

Martin a great find -- thanks. Will they be udating this site - I hope -- more results would be a great addition.

WOW! Great info guys.
I leave for one day and my computer fills with good HSB stuff!

Thanks to everyone for great archiveable (sp) material.

Bruce, I wish your HSB chart was done in old fashioned English units and not metric.
I struggle with the conversion. My brain thinks in pounds, ounces, inches and farenheit.

Ed

Standard weight for a 3 pound HSB is 17.8". Experienced HSB raisers have covered the question asked by Edward pretty well. Remembver that the larger a HSB becomes the longer it usually takes to land the fish due to a longer, stronger fight. Lactic acid accumulations (oxygen debt) in the mussle tissue has to be worked out of the fish or it dies. As Bruce pointed out the warmer water becomes, the less dissolved oxygen that it will hold. The oxygen debt of the fish's mussle mass of a tired fish will be replaced quicker in cooler water. I agree with Bruce that the chances of the fish surviving a lengthy fight are much better at water temps less than 75F.

Update:

Received about 3 inches of rain over the weekend and I thought this might be a good opportunity to test out the water quality theory I put forth earlier...i.e. with 3 inches of fresh water and reduced temps would the HSB still suffer angling mortality?

Result...hooked about a 3 pounder on the first cast, but it completely swallowed the lure in the gills/gut. No way to save the fish and/or get any data to test the theory from that fish. Made me sick/disgusted to kill the fish so I just quit fishing for them. I'm snakebit!

Can't say for sure, but I do believe that fish would have survived, if not for the hooking trama. It was very lively, contrary to all other 3 pound plus HSB caught this summer.

I still believe water quality may be a very significant variable in this question and may explain differences in angling mortality observed across different ponds and regions...just not eager to do more sampling yet.

HSB in Hot Summer Weather

Now that our ponds are “full and flushed” from the recent rains, and entering summer months, I believe it timely to “jump start” the thread about HSB mortality in summer temps.

Last week I fished our ¼ acre un-aerated “forage/grow-out/HSB-CNBG” pond to catch and transfer 5, 10-12 inch HSB to main pond.
Surface water temperature was 85F.
In the process, I caught several ~3# HSB that have survived two record breaking hot/low water summers, and resuscitated in O2 live well, returning healthy fish to pond.

While sampling CNBG in main pond I “accidentally” caught 3, 4+# HSB, and after O2 resuscitation, successfully released healthy fish.
These fish were landed quickly with a 9wt striper fly rod with 14# leader, to avoid “fight to death” syndrome”.

I agree that HSB caught temps above 85F are at risk, but will continue to monitor their progress on an infrequent basis.
I will continue to leave the 3# class of HSB in ¼ acre un-aerated pond to observe survival over the 3rd summer, and beyond if low mortality.

Two sources of information used are derived from Texas Fishing Forum, posted by ML, and Bruce Condello’s website.

Texas Fishing Forum
http://texasfishingforum.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1291106/page/2#Post1291106ot Summer Weather SB in Hot Summer Weather SB in Hot Summer Weather

#1291868 - 05/02/07 08:23 AM Re: Stocking White Bass [Re: johntvette]
Meadowlark Angler Registered: 11/04/04 Posts: 332 Loc: East Texas Offline
sealytexangler,The whites don't survive in my East Texas ponds. I've tried. You're probably familiar with hybrid striped bass(HSB), which is a cross between a white and striped bass. I tried them also, thinking I could find a better pond predator than the LMB. They didn't work out for me either. They(HSB) grew well up to about 4 pounds then didn't show much growth after that. A perplexing characteristic of the HSB is that in ponds in the summer months, the HSB suffer a very high angling mortality in fish above 3 or 4 pounds. Last summer, during the drought I lost some 4 pound plus class fish that just died in the ponds without angling. After that, I've abandoned my affair with HSB in ponds and go strictly with LMB as the primary predator. You can read about my experience at: http://www.meadowlarkponds.com/HSB.htmIn addition to angling mortality, the HSB are voracious feeders requiring artificial feed to achieve high weight gains. I found that they are not very compatible with LMB in a pond because they take so much of the available forage to sustain themselves. Every pond is different and maybe one could be successful with Whites(or a better bet the HSB) in a pond, but they didn't work for me.


Bruce Copndello’s WebSite
http://www.bizfunctional.com/wipers/livestock/livestock.asp

“ Stocking rates can be as high as 100 lbs/acre-foot of water if ample aeration and fresh water is available. 500 fish per surface acre of water is an acceptable number as long as fish are periodically harvested to not exceed 100 lbs/acre-foot.
Wipers aggressively take feed and will grow rapidly! 2 pounds/yr growth rate is typical with a top end of 12-15 pounds. Larger wipers over 4 pounds prefer water temperatures of less than 82 degrees F. with dissolved oxygen levels of 4-8ppm. Shallow ponds in warm regions may need a cool water discharge during the heat of summer. Kids and adults enjoy watching wipers on a feeding frenzy. 500 fish will turn your pond into a froth during feeding time. High quality game fish chow from Purina is an excellent, economical choice.”


These are two opposing views from East Texas and Nebraska.
I continue optimistic and enthusiastic about the future of HSB in our N.E. Texas small ponds.

I am very familiar with hot E. Texas summers, but I will rely on Bruce’s comments pertaining to Nebraska summer heat.

As of now I believe water quality to be as much, or more a factor in HSB mortality as hot summer temps, but hopefully will be conclusive, moving in to our 5th year HSB experience.


George Glazener
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds