Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Fish Management for 15ac Lake

Our family has a ranch in central Texas with a 15 acre pond/lake on it. It was built about 20 years ago and originally stocked with florida bass, crappie, blue gill, coppernose brim, and channel cat. Its deepest depth is 24 feet when full and it averages 4-8 feet in depth throuhout the lake. From about the 5th year of its existence to the 14th year 8lb+ bass were caught yearly with the largest being 10 pounds. Then a steady decline started in size. Throughout this whole period bass were easily caught and what obviously happened is it got overpopulated and the large bass became less frequent through the years. An average of 80 pounds of bass were being kept yearly. 4 years ago I began keeping 150 pounds of bass per year and each year since then we have caught bigger bass. 2 years ago we started cacthing more 3 pounders then last year 4Ibs and this year we have caught numberous 5 and one over 6Ibs. We do not keep fish over 16 inches. I see some brim and bluegill but rarely any over 6 inches. My question is am I going to need to increase the number of bait fish to continue to grow larger bass again? I have heard of people stocking threadfin shad and wondered if they would be good in this situation? Thanks for any replys

With the right conditions, bluegill alone could sustain largemouth bass up to trophy size. Consider a feeding program with Aquamax 500 to grow these intermediate bluegill out to 6"+. A feeding program along with continued bass harvest may be all you need to do at this time.

However, with 15 acres of water you may have an open niche in the system for threadfin shad. You need a plankton bloom and some open water to sustain threadfin shad. Clear water with significant submerged vegetation is not good threadfin habitat.

Tilapia are another good forage fish, and they have to be restocked every spring.

I'm sure some others will chime in to this one.

I live in central Texas and I think you need me to cull some of those 20 year old catfish out of the lake for no charge.

Seriously I would stock some tilapia!

In addition to the great suggestions posted by Overton I think I would up the cull on the LMB by 50 to 100 pounds for a year and see the results, keeping within your 16 inch limit. A 15 acre impoundment is huge. Continue to monitor your population and see if the results are working for your goal of larger LMB. Since you are catching and releasing LMB in the 3-6 pound range I don't think you will have any problems with replacing those taken. I am no expert so take my advice with less weight than others yet to post.

I like Overtons suggestions regarding alternate and/or additional forage species if you have an adequate plankton bloom. If it were me, and it's not, I would consider adding both tools for a couple of years. Both are prolific spawners. This would help the bluegill to rebound by taking pressure off them. I think that would be a lot better alternative than just adding bluegill. No bigger bluegill than 6 inches says that they don't get the opportunity to get large.

No matter what you do, you will have to continue monitoring and culling. More forage means more and larger bass and can turn into a Catch 22. However, the balancing of predator and prey is always critical and in a 15 acre lake can be time consuming and expensive. I envy you for having the challenge.

Tilapia die at 54 degree water temp and, I believe, threadfin at 42. However, as a tool, they will have done their job. You have to continuing doing yours.

Where is the lake in central Texas? That might matter regarding temps. You didn't mention the crappie and catfish. What is their situation?

Thanks for everyone's respones.....I forgot to mention we started fertilizing four years ago and we do it 3 times between March and October. We should probably do it more because we rarely get a plankton bloom and the water stays relatively clear it just gets expensive to do it more than 3 times on that size of a lake. The lake is located south of Brownwood and we never fish for crappie but occasionally catch 1 to 2 pound crappie on plastic worms or crank baits when fishing for bass. We do not have as many catfish as we use to which is fine with me, but there are still plenty and some decent size ones. We have also caught catfish on plastic worms and lizards, caught one on a lizard last year that was 7Ibs. Threadfin might make it out there through a mild winter but it would be close. I checked into stocking them and it won't be cheap to put as many into the lake as they recommended but if it payed off with results I would be willing to spend the money.

I had a pond that was very similiar and I can tell you that you are on the right track.
Here are two comments:
1) I do not understand why you are not getting a good bloom. I would look into this...

2)We use to catch crappie occassionally on artificial baits. A few years ago, I built some tree reefs out of cedar trees and we started fishing for crappie with minnows. WOW!! I couldn't believe how many big crappie we caught.
And even today, we still catch lots of big crappie. I say all that to say that you might want to sink some trees and start enjoying the crappie fishing.
Good Luck,
DR

Good ideas and info above. Think about this and then go read the article by Dave Willis in the next to last PB issue on LMB/BG ponds. As you cull more LMB in #s and pounds the BG fishery responds. Usually in a bass crowded pond there are a few very big BG and very few 3-4in. ones. As you up the LMB cull the number and type of BG dynamics changes. You see more 3-5in BG and less very large BG. You may be seeing the result of your LMB culling and moving toward a balanced LMB/BG population. Understanding the balance and dynamics of your pond is the key. What are the ages and RW of the fish ? You may be ready for a electro-shock survey and pro assessment to establish a baseline.

Brad,

You happen to be located close to one of the very best pro pond managers anywhere...Bob Waldrop, Tyler Fish Farms. He was selected to manage President Bush's pond in Crawford. He prefers to work with larger ponds such as yours. I have found him to be extremely knowledgable and helpful...but as you might expect, he is also a very busy man.

I've discussed threadfin shad with him and he refuses to even attempt stocking them in small ponds less than about 8 acres. His theory is that you must have several large areas of deep water or you can not sustain them due to LMB predation...your pond sounds like a good fit to that.

I have actually talked to Bob at Tyler fish farms several times. He is who recommended I start taking out twice as many fish yearly as we had previously. He also recommended stocking 200 new florida bass to keep the gene pool strong since the same ones had been in there for over 20 years. We did that last May so hopefully enough lived to make an impact. I feel like with a pond that size and that kind of depth we should be able to grow 10 pound bass it is just frustrating because it sure doesn't happen over night no matter what is done. What does RW stand for?

What is aquamax 500 that overton mentioned above?

RW is relative weight. It is a measure of how the weights of your LMB compare to a national standard. If you do a search on here you can find info on using them and also the actual tables themselves. To get your RW's, you divide your individual LMB weight by the standard weight for that length of bass...numbers greater than 1 are very good.

Greg Grimes has posted an excellent spreadsheet for this computation.

p.s. at the risk of opening up an old controversy, some of us have experienced very severe Florida LMB catchability problems, especially as related to Florida bass that are larger, older, and may have been caught before. I go so far as to say that pure Florida LMB that are older in my ponds are virtually uncatchable by artificial means.

You can grow them and grow them very large, but catching them may be another matter.

David R above has pointed out my thoughts. Why can't you get and keep a good bloom and why fertilize 3 times per year? That's unusual except in some areas of pine tree country. You may be able to lime once and fertilize a lot less.

The next time you need to fertilize, collect a water sample and send it to A & M for analysis. I believe they recommend a new baby bottle for collection. It's fairly inexpensive. Post the results here or ask for their recommendations.

i'll do it, thanks

We've had luck establishing threadfins in ponds as small as 1/10 acre. My dad has a 1/10 pond in north texas, near the oklahoma border that was stocked with threadfins 2 years ago. The pond has no lmbs but has hybrid stripers and catfish. He caught some shad in a cast net this fall. Pond is only 6-7 ft deep. I'm not saying that shad will make every winter in this small pond.

Also we've had luck establishing shad in ponds as small as 2 acres with lmb predation pressure. The key for success is fertile water with some deep-open areas, and adult shad that are ready to spawn.

We surveyed a 2 acre pond this year for a new customer. His pond was loaded with threadfins and chunky bass. As a matter of fact, we ended up harvesting about 50 lbs of chunky male lmbs from this 2 acre pond to help out the females. In this particular case the threadfins were the primary forage base, more than his populations bluegill or redear sunfish. This pond had good natural plankton bloom and some deep open water.

Odds for threadfin survival and establishment in a pond or lake depend mainly on environmental conditions, which are not necessarily related to surface acreage. This is my very humble opinion. I'd love to hear from folks who have stocked threadfins.

Brad Bergfeld.
As you know, Bob Waldrop is highly regarded and a good guy to do business, and as ML mentions he specializes in large ponds and lakes and is a perfect choice for you situation.

He sells fish to the small pond owner as a ”service’ as he calls it, and does not solicit that business.

However ML’s comments about TF shad success in small ponds is questionable, however well intended, and should not discourage the small ponds owners from stocking TF shad when evaluated and recommended by a professional.

There are fisheries biologists that may not agree with Waldrop about TF in small ponds.

George Glazener
N.E. Texas

I see no problem with threadfins or any other "tool". Someday the water temps will go below 42 degrees and they will die. Okay, that's a risk and risk is something we live with in all of our daily decisions. Most of our "ponding" decisions that stray from typical BG, LMB and CC stockings are weather or environmental related. Even standard stockings make assumptions that we don't bother to quantify.

Want tilapia for forage? What happens if the water temps don't go below 54 degrees for a couple of years? The risk is there but not likely.

Lusk recently told me about threadfins in Sherman Wymans lake. He lost about 1/4 of them when water temps reached 42 degrees for only 15 minutes. I'm sure he knew the risk and accepted it.

As long as we understand what we are doing and make informed decisions when we manage a pond I don't see a problem. Stocking of forage tilapia this year means we had better plan on stocking them next year. All tools are part of a management plan. Sometimes Mother Nature is guaranteed to throw us a curve ball.

George,

I was simply stating what Bob told me when I asked him about stocking threadfin shad in my 4 acre pond which has very deep areas. I assume he would tell you and anyone else the same thing. He said he wouldn't even consider it, if he were me and further he told me what he thought about folks pushing that option in small ponds such as mine and smaller. That's what he told me, pure and simple. His reasoning wasn't about temperature as much as it was about having extensive deep areas for the threadfin to hide from predation in winter months. He said, and my limited experience agrees, that in the winter the theadfin move to the deep areas and in small ponds those areas are simply not extensive enough to offer shelter from LMB predation. I'm sure there are probably small pond exceptions.

I don't know the answer to the question as to whether it is worth the gamble or not in a small pond. I simply repeated what a respected pro told me in response to a question. It may work for some in small ponds and it may not. It would be nice if there was a study which would determine the probability of success/failure in small ponds, but the large number of variables make such studies difficult.

I do know first hand from two very expensive failures at trying to establish them (10,000 threadfin each attempt) that I will not try again and Bob's extensive experience may be worth noting.

I agree with DD that it is a risk decision...but wish that the risk was more quantified so we could all make the best decision for our respective situations.

My experience with TF shad is non-existent in ponds small or large, but very extensive in large reservoirs such as Lake Texoma.

Shad kills are not restricted to ponds large or small – Lake Texoma has shad kills every few years or so and TP&W re-stocks each time – they are very prolific and population is quickly restored.

What is the difference between restocking tilapia each year and TF shad occasional due to winterkill – or predation?

In my case $ and broken promises...I was promised success at a sustaining threadfin population and it failed twice. The cost far surpassed the cost of Tilapia and did not provide a fraction of the benefits of Tilapia, IMO. Not even close.

No comparison in my case. Tilapia far surpass them in pond benefits. The two failed threadfin attempts far surpassed the costs of Tilapia stocking for 4 years total and didn't come close to adding the weight to predators, removing algae, adding to pond health, increasing BG populations, and providing some limited sport fishing and eating....not even close in my book.

ML, what caused the TF loss? I know very little about TF but you're pretty far South for multiple winter kills.

DD,

Just as Bob Waldrop stated most threadfin loss in small ponds is due to winter predation not temps. I don't think my water temps have ever been below 45 degrees the last several years and rarely even below 50 degrees.

My failures are due to LMB and HSB predation. In winter, every threadfin heads to the deepest water...if that water isn't extensive, the LMB and HSB can literally surround them and eat every single one of the threadfins...which is what happened to me twice. I was a slow learner.

I was out at a customer's pond near Brenham yesterday. The drought in that area continues and what once was a 2+ acre pond with 10 ft of max depth is now and has been through the winter about 3/4 acre with 6-7 ft max depth. Even with good populations of predators such as lmb and hsbs, we saw shad around the entire area of the pond. Also, he said he can pick any spot on the pond and throw a cast net to catch threadfins on almost every cast.

It is my opinion, based on this and other experiences with threadfins, that shad have thrived in this pond because of the good natural plankton bloom.

I think the best approach to threadfin shad stocking decisions in any water body goes like this: If the conditions look good for shad then you should stock them at least one time and just hide and watch. If they don't make it for some reason then they may not be worth another try. Up to the pond/lake owner to change management program accordingly in order to improve conditions. If they do thrive then the investment was wortht the $. So, for ML, you shouldn't stock them again unless you change your management program. Anyone making a universal recommendation not to stock threadfins due to pond size alone is expressing unjustified skepticism in my opinion.

Todd, you said a good natural bloom. Am I correct in assuming that his water was naturally fertile and thus needed and received no fertilization?

Another question. I know that TFS are great at reproducing but what water temps start and end their biological urges? I think I'm also asking just what would keep them from doing well in a small pond (other than 42 degree temps and/or an inadequate bloom)?

I have never stocked them and don't know enough about them.

The only fertilizer that this pond receives is possibly runoff from watershed and organic waste from processed fish food. The bloom is not necessarily "green", but brownish/green, which indicates to me that there is an abundance of zooplankton.

Shad start spawning at around 68F and continue into low 70s. So they spawn here from mid-april to early may.

Hope that helps.