Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
BabbRust, Mitch Hollar, Heysel, Ashmiller1518, amekounglee5
17276 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics38,923
Posts528,664
Members17,277
Most Online3,583
Jan 15th, 2020
Top Posters
esshup 25,416
ewest 20,622
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 13,752
Who's Online Now
2 members (Quarter Acre, RAH), 26 guests, and 86 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
HBG-possible female?
#256081 04/24/11 11:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,966
S
Ambassador
Lunker
OP Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
S
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,966
I caught this fish last night. It was too late to do anything other than transfer it over to a cage until today. It almost looks to me, like this is an egg laden female. Also, the appearance is quite different from my other hybrids. The pic with the two fish shows these differences pretty well. The fish on top represents what I usually catch. The body shape, coloration, and mouth size just don't fit my norm, if there can be a "normal" HBG. I know there are differences between individuals from different bodies of water, but these came from the same pond. My fish are usually quite thick all along their underside, but this one is wide only in the belly region. The genital area appears swollen to me also. Do you think it could be female, and perhaps an F2 that came from the hatchery? I don't have any specs on it yet, I wanted to get the pics up So I could decide whether to release it, or put it under the knife. Tell me what you think.

Attached Files
100_0057.JPG (183.16 KB, 737 downloads)
Solo pic of unusual,(to me) HBG.
100_0065.JPG (180.37 KB, 717 downloads)
Regular HBG, and variant.
100_0060.JPG (86.96 KB, 612 downloads)
uro-genital area closeup.
100_0066.JPG (84.48 KB, 589 downloads)
Another shot.

"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Re: HBG-possible female?
sprkplug #256102 04/24/11 03:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 449
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 449
Is there a hint of green sunfish in the fish on top? ie. large mouth, color, yellow tips on fins. If the overall shape wasn't so oval, I'd think it was a GSF.



2008, 2011 & 2012 conference attendee.
Striving to be the person that my dog already thinks I am.
Re: HBG-possible female?
sprkplug #256103 04/24/11 03:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,752
Likes: 48
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,752
Likes: 48
I also think it is a female HBG and as you mentioned it might be a F2 or later female.


Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Re: HBG-possible female?
Bill Cody #256110 04/24/11 04:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,416
Likes: 105
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 25,416
Likes: 105
Just from the coloring and pattern I'd be tempted to say there was some RES or PS in the mix.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: HBG-possible female?
esshup #256116 04/24/11 05:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,966
S
Ambassador
Lunker
OP Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
S
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,966
Bill: Thanks for the reply. I think I'll keep this one for the table, my curiosity has the better of me.
Scott, when I first pulled the fish from the water, the red margin on the opercular tab was more pronounced. I also wondered about a possible RES connection.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Re: HBG-possible female?
sprkplug #256121 04/24/11 05:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Has anyone noticed a lot of people think the hybrid bluegills they buy are sterile? I seem to run into this a lot. All the literature I see says they are not sterile, but predominantly males. Percentages vary depending on the literature but I've seen up to 90 percent males.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 04/24/11 05:21 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: HBG-possible female?
Cecil Baird1 #256126 04/24/11 06:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,966
S
Ambassador
Lunker
OP Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
S
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,966
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Has anyone noticed a lot of people think the hybrid bluegills they buy are sterile? I seem to run into this a lot. All the literature I see says they are not sterile, but predominantly males. Percentages vary depending on the literature but I've seen up to 90 percent males.

Yep. Some growers I am familiar with actually tout this fallacy as fact. In some ways I think the industry has done more harm than good where this fish is concerned. The HBG is possibly a "niche" fish, but if used appropriately they fill this niche VERY well.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Re: HBG-possible female?
Cecil Baird1 #256127 04/24/11 06:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,458
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,458
It may be a reciprocal cross. It seems from my research and experience that crossing a male BG with a female GSF generally produces a different looking fish than crossing a female BG with a male GSF.

Cecil, I see that all the time and not just with HBG. People think that just because it is a hybrid it must be sterile. Some crosses that is the case, particularly those from more distantly related species. But crosses of species that are more closely related are often fertile. In general, it seems far more hybrids are fertile than infertile in the fish world.


Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths.
Re: HBG-possible female?
CJBS2003 #256129 04/24/11 06:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,622
Likes: 59
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 20,622
Likes: 59
Between 66 % and 99% male depending on the study. Most around 95%. it is thought that the one study with 66% males was due to non pure GSF stock. The real interesting part is the % male depending on the type of lepomis cross. The seminal study was done by Childers.


HYBRIDIZATION OF FISHES IN NORTH AMERICA
(FAMILY CENTRARCHIDAE)
by

W.F. CHILDERS
Illinois Natural History Survey
Urbana, Illinois
U.S.A.


4.1 Sex Ratios of F1 hybrids
Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.

In this paper R refers to red-ear sunfish, B to bluegill, G to green sunfish, and W to warmouth. Matings between individuals of different species are designated to P1 crosses and the resultant hybrids are designated as F1 hybrids. F2 hybrids are those produced by mating an F1 male with an F1 female. The P1 cross of a male bluegill with a female green sunfish is designated B G and the resultant hybrids are designated BG F1 hybrids; GB F1 designates the reciprocal hybrids.


4.2 Reproductive success of hybrids
The reproductive success of each of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids was investigated in one or more ponds. The occurrence and abundance of F2 hybrids were determined by seining, trapping, shocking, poisoning or draining the ponds after the F1 hybrids were one or more years of age. RB, BR, and BG failed to produce abundant F2 generations when in ponds which contained no other species of fishes. In contrast to these results, BR F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 generations in two ponds in Indiana (Ricker 1948). The other seven kinds of F1 hybrids produced abundant F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Three of the seven kinds of F1 hybrids which produced large F2 populations when stocked in ponds containing no other fishes were also stocked in ponds with largemouth bass. RG F1 hybrids and GB F1 hybrids, when stocked with largemouth bass, produced only a few F2 hybrids. No F2 hybrids were found in the pond stocked with BW F1 hybrids and largemouth bass. WG F2 hybrids and GW F2 hybrids were stocked in ponds containing no other fishes. Both of these F2 hybrids produced large F3 populations.
_________________________







Last edited by ewest; 04/24/11 07:15 PM.















Re: HBG-possible female?
ewest #256179 04/24/11 10:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Eric,

Thanks. I believe that is one of the studies I saw. I also think I had a text in school by Bennett and Childers or something like that.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: HBG-possible female?
sprkplug #256180 04/24/11 10:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Has anyone noticed a lot of people think the hybrid bluegills they buy are sterile? I seem to run into this a lot. All the literature I see says they are not sterile, but predominantly males. Percentages vary depending on the literature but I've seen up to 90 percent males.

Yep. Some growers I am familiar with actually tout this fallacy as fact. In some ways I think the industry has done more harm than good where this fish is concerned. The HBG is possibly a "niche" fish, but if used appropriately they fill this niche VERY well.


I truly believe they fill a niche where an aggressive feed trained panfish pond is wanted; however, many of their proponents fail to mention they don't provide much forage if you want a balanced bass population.

I believe the Michigan DNR actually says regular bluegills are doomed to overpopulate in a farm pond, and pushes hybrids as the best alternative. There may be some merit to that in northern climes where bluegill and bass grow more slowly but I question that as a general rule.

It's difficult to find a supply of regular bluegills in our region especially in Michigan! Everybody seems to be pushing the hybrids. And of course a hybrid bluegill is a perpetual cash cow as it needs to be continually planted.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 04/24/11 10:58 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Re: HBG-possible female?
Cecil Baird1 #256187 04/25/11 12:48 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 844
B
bz Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 844
I don't know all the scientific theory but I do know that I have hybrid bluegill that are BG/GSF cross. Don't know which was the male. I also know that my fish were stocked 10 years ago and I have at least 4 distinct year classes in my pond. So they definitely have reproduced. It did take a few years to notice any reproduction however so I suspect very few females in the F1. As proof I have eaten close to 400 of them so far and have yet to cut open one that was obviously a female. At least I've never seen any eggs. I have eaten substantial numbers of fish from the F1 and F2 generations. Rarely kill any from the F3 and younger class. I expect to see more females as I get into the younger classes. I think this all agrees with what people are saying here.


Gotta get back to fishin!
Re: HBG-possible female?
Cecil Baird1 #256265 04/25/11 04:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,458
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,458
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
I believe the Michigan DNR actually says regular bluegills are doomed to overpopulate in a farm pond, and pushes hybrids as the best alternative. There may be some merit to that in northern climes where bluegill and bass grow more slowly but I question that as a general rule.


It is very common in northern latitudes for BG to stunt when stocked with or before LMB. However, I have found giving LMB at least a year head start or stocking advanced LMB sizes compared to BG will prevent this. I want to time it so that the LMB spawn for the first time the same year the BG do. This is where FHM are so important as a starter food for the bass. Just as the FHM start to get wiped out, the BG will begin spawning and the YOY BG take all the pressure then.


Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths.
Re: HBG-possible female?
sprkplug #256275 04/25/11 05:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,966
S
Ambassador
Lunker
OP Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
S
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,966
Well, If I had any lingering doubts, I don't now. I put the fish on the fillet table. An honest-to-goodness, female HBG with eggs. I normally eat the eggs with the fillets, but these weren't very far along.

Attached Files
100_0079.JPG (94.84 KB, 515 downloads)
Caution, fish innards ahead.

"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Re: HBG-possible female?
sprkplug #256364 04/26/11 08:20 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,840
M
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
M
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,840
So how do you prep the eggs?

Re: HBG-possible female?
MRHELLO #256377 04/26/11 09:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,966
S
Ambassador
Lunker
OP Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
S
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,966
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
So how do you prep the eggs?


Wash em', bread em', and fry em'

Careful though... they have a tendency to explode and cover the cook with spatters of hot oil. Poking them with a fork before cooking lessens the magnitude of the explosion.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Re: HBG-possible female?
sprkplug #256402 04/26/11 01:09 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,840
M
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
M
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,840
How long in the grease, about 1 min or so.


Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
DClayton, Nicebass
Recent Posts
Plant ID?
by RAH - 06/17/21 03:07 PM
Winter kill 2021
by DrLuke - 06/17/21 02:40 PM
HSB died.....again
by aguita - 06/17/21 02:02 PM
Wood duck camera house
by DrLuke - 06/17/21 01:35 PM
help only other option is electrofishing
by Pat Williamson - 06/17/21 01:20 PM
Stocking A New Pond North Of Abilene Tx.
by ewest - 06/17/21 12:59 PM
Finally stocking today
by Quarter Acre - 06/17/21 10:20 AM
What did you do at your pond today?
by Theo Gallus - 06/17/21 09:52 AM
bushy pond weed exploding
by Quarter Acre - 06/17/21 07:56 AM
Preliminary estimates
by Dave Davidson1 - 06/17/21 06:09 AM
Solar Charger for Trolling Motor
by BabbRust - 06/17/21 02:10 AM
Thoughts on a new 2.7 acre pond stocking
by Heppy - 06/16/21 09:57 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
RES vs PS
RES vs PS
by crimsondave, June 4
Gravid?
Gravid?
by Shorty, May 28
Blue on Black
Blue on Black
by Shorty, May 27
Syphon System
Syphon System
by Deancutler, May 19
Fungus on Bluegill
Fungus on Bluegill
by Hunter_59, May 7

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4