Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site ESS13 For Leaking Pond

I had a new pond that was dammed in August of 2005, that has never filled up. I just had a report by an environmental company that said it should of filled up by April of 2006. It is a 2 acre pond with an average depth of nine feet and 40 acres of drainage. The closest it has ever come to full pool is 42 inches from the top of the overflow.

I was given an estimate to line the pond with ESS-13, including draining and reseeding for $63,000. The pond cost $50,000 to build.

The pond is the focal point for a house I plan to build so I have to fix it one way or the other. I can not sell the property or start building until this is resolved.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Im new at this and im in the same situation. But I would say this, If you can drain it and find the leak and fix it. you havent lost much time.
It kind of matters if your trying to raise blue ribbon bass. I have a problem with seeping under the dam + drought conditions here in Bama. Down about 30 inches. We have put about 2 1/2 tons of bentonite in and will be getting more but finding the leak is kinda hard ya know. But its all good, my wife says im sexy with a shovel.

Here's a start, Mark.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000044;p=1

Welcome to the forum.

Bruce

The dam is not leaking. I think our soil is very porous. Not sandy though. I am wondering if i should try the ESS, try an alternative or wait a year to see if the pond seals itself.

I just wish I knew for sure what the fix is. The builder is very experienced and says to be patient but the water budget from the consulting firm indicates the pond will always be deficient.

I hate to lose another year before i stock it.

Mark,

Ouch!! That one hurts to just read about. A couple of questions and then suggestions on possible other options:

1) have you looked thoroughly for signs below the dam for an area that shows signs of leaking? If the leak is specific to one area, then your problem can be reduced somewhat.

2) during construction were there any areas noted that had springs, gravel, or poor soil, i.e. insufficient clay? Were soil tests performed?

At the price quoted to you for ESS-13, perhaps you would want to consider getting quotes on a couple of other options:

1) a pond liner. This would also be expensive but perhaps have a higher probability of success than ESS-13.

2) bring in good clay to seal the dam and other suspect areas.

I think I would first do everything I could to find out what is causing the leak then pursue appropriate remedial actions. If a total drain and re-seal is required, then consider all options, weigh the risks and the costs involved, and make the best decision you can with available data.

I wish you success in fixing what must be a painful problem.

Thanks for the reply. There was good clay in the creek bottom that was saved for the dam and attachments. There are alot of springs and rocks in the site. I feel confident that the dam is not leaking and spread 1110lbs. of bentonite into the water already.

This is a real dilemma as I have seeded the shallow end for waterfowl and i can't stock fish until I know if I have to drain it or not. I have already lost one season for fish and may lose 2.

Your springs are most likely your problem. If that is your problem the Ess-13 will never work. The problem with a spring is they have a natural level according to how much pressure they have. This level will change with seasonal aquifer variation. If your spillway is higher than that level, water will go into the spring when the hydrostatic pressure is greater than the level of the spring. If and that is a big IF that is the problem, the only way to fix it is to drain and seal the whole pond with clay or a liner. Both are a very expensive propositions.

Meadowlark and PFF offer good advice and thoughts. Start with ML's list. Were you actively involved and aware of the soils compositions to some degree? Are we talking clay? In other words, past the springs, are you comfortable that there was sufficient clay in the soil to bind and create at "soil liner"? As noted above, the dam should be the next suspect considered. If you are comfortable with the seal, then PFF's notes on springs could be scary-true. Are there any other ponds in the area? Can you be a good (nosey) neighbor and introduce yourself?
$60 some-odd K might drain a pond and haul in alot of clay, if needed. Depends how far you gotta go to get it. I can't imagine that seeding is a notable portion of that cost...? Would this be an awkward time to offer wishes of "welcome" to the PB forum?...hope not...they're genuine.
-
-
edit: what empiracal evidence do you have that it is not filling up (besides expert advice that it should be full)? Are you measuring rainfall, depth changes, calculating evaporation...stuff like that?

Mark-Brettski brings up a very good point. You should keep very accurate records of your rainfall, pond water level and evaporation amounts in your area. I know it would be hard to wait another year but they say the first couple of years that water seeps into newly covered ground. With time and records you could see if the leak or seep is slowing down. In the meantime you could stock some fathead minnows and a few BG to start your forage base.

Good replies and thanks for the welcome. The springs are mainly outside the pond and flow into it. I don't remember any in the bottom per se.

The dam is very well constructed but there are wet areas below it where it attaches. The builder claims that these were springs that he could not get behind the dam. i believe him for the most part. A very honest man that I have known for years. He could be wrong though.

There was very good marine clay that he saved during excavation for the dam. There is also a 2 acre pond downstream of me that is perfect. It lies on the same stream that begins on my property.

I had a water budget done by an enviromental firm that concludes my pond will not be very good without a liner( ESS 13) which they will very happy to install and guarantee- 1 year for. The report indicates the pond should have filled last April.

There are not a lot of experts I can find to help me decide what to do. This pond business is alot of speculation and guesswork. I do have the soil types from a map but have not paid for a true geotechnical(?) report.

This is all rural land and all the ponds I see seem to be fine. We just had 14 inches of rain this month to put us 5 inches ahead of normal.

This is a very tricky problem I have.

As far as experts, the guy who built this pond might be one.

Who kows who is right. I just hate to gamble on waiting another year before I can stock it. It was as low as 60" from the top of the overflow before all the rain this month. It has risen to 42" and is not moving. The spring into it is flowing the best I have seen it in 2 years.

However, we are going into a heat wave with temps near 100 for the next few days so I am sure it will drop some.

a)...sake of argument; is the flow of water behind the dam seemingly enough to the amount you might expect to keep your pond low if it were leaking?
b) Was a core cut (keyway) before construction of the dam? If yes, specifics of dimensions and construction. If no, specifics of grade preparation for dam construction.
c) How does your contractor explain the situation (not trying to be a wiseguy...seriously. Let's continue with the idea that he is pond-knowledgeable and honest. He should have good input.)
-
-edit; d) What is your County NRCS's take on it?

Brettski,

To me the amount of water outside the dam is enough to lower the pond when it is dry, which it has been until the first week of July. That is what got me going. That and a fish stocker that claims to be a pond expert told me it was leaking when he came to advise me on stocking.

The dam was created by excavating the perimeter and some bottom and bulilding a 20' dam across a small creek in a little natural valley. The base of the dam is probably 45' if I remember right. The builder had a diagram with all the dimensions and the different types of materials he used.

I did have someone from the county out but he was not a soil or pond expert per se. I am having trouble finding any one with extensive pond constrution knowledge.

hmmmm,
So, while we are here, let's focus on the dam construction.
a) Was the soil at the damsite tested for suitability...borings or holes with the excavator?
b) You say "The dam was created by excavating the perimeter and some bottom". Can you elaborate? Are you referring to a core? Are you familiar with coring or cutting a keyway? How deep, how wide?
c) Was the creek running during construction? If yes, how was the flow stopped or routed during this period?

Mark,

Sorry for your problems. 2 things pop into my head. One, an old creek bed often has sand and gravel layered with clay. There could be a broad sand layer running under the dam. Digging into the outside dam face could expose the problem.

Second, does the water seem to rise to a certain level and stop? If so, there may be a sand layer right at the water's edge. Look for crevices, holes, and gaps running along the water line and just below. If you locate any sand layers, it's possible you could dig them out and pack them with 2' of clay for a real cheap fix. Best of luck!

I really appreciate your time on this.

a)No testing was done. The excavtor was happy that we had a lot of marine clay in the creekbed.

b)The core was the marine clay from the site. I am not sure about what a keyway is. The dam is around 45 feet at the bottom and is 20-22 feet tall with an 8 foot or so road across the top. The creek is a wet weather creek that eminates from springs at the top of the pond. He worked around it for the most part as he built the pond last summer and we were in a drought period.

We just had the largest rainfall since Hurricane Agnes in 1972 with a lot of flooding. That cured our drought and put our YTD precip at +5". I have 2 acres of pond with an average depth of 9'. I thought that shoud have added more than 18" of water. But I am not a pond expert.

Robinson,

It sounds like you had the same problem. Did you get it fixed?

MB

Bobad,

We don't really have sand here. It is rocky loam. The report puts them in the Class B hydrologic group which has a moderately low runoff potential.

The CN value is 58, whatever taht is.

Mark, you post does ring a bell, in fact almost sounds dead on similar. I am planning to do what TN hillbilly suggested in August or September, in our dryest of months, and compact it whenever the moisture content gets right. You will not find any better sealer than clay. Compare everything, but remember not to get fancy, if clay is an option. If using clay is economically feasible, it is your best solution.

I am told that it would take 500 loads of clay to do the entire pond and depending on where we had to get it, it could cost alot more than the $15k for ESS-13. They also said that bentomat and rubber would be much more expensive.

The company that quoted me says they have never had a failure with a pond or wetland using the ESS-13.

Mark,

I guess I'm skeptical by nature, but saying they are hitting 100% makes me wonder. I find it hard to imagine someone in the pond leak fixing business saying they have never had a failure. Since they are saying that, I would ask for a 100% Guarantee against any leaks. Are they willing to offer that guarantee?

I'm having trouble understanding why using clay isn't a viable alternative... you wrote, "There was very good marine clay that he saved during excavation for the dam." If good clay is available at the site, seems like that is a viable alternative.

If contemplating spending that much money, I think I would go for a second opinion..or even third opinion. Just my thoughts.

I would love another opinion. I can't seem to find anyone else around here that specializes in this though. I think they meant they have never had a failure using ESS-13.

The excavator said there was good clay but the engineer says that there is a lack of clay in this area and they don't know if they can find enough to put down a 24" base that a proper job would require. Hence, the ESS-13 solution that they will guarantee.

They will not gaurantee it 100% forever because they did not do the original construction and it would require an ESS-13 supervisor during the whole process.

I wish I could find someone around here for another opinion! That is why I am on this message board. I am looking for other opinions before I go off and spend a ton of money.

Everyone has been really helpful. Thanks!

Mark, did you take a "diary" of pics during construction? Perhaps if you had a few during initial stages, some of the experts here could evaluate how and if you dam was cored (built w/ a keyway) which in turn might eliminate some seepage possibilities/theories.

I have a "bedrock" pond built over a seasonal creek bed as well. Prior to renovation, the pond would fill, and stay full, in rainy season. After rains quit, it would rapidly drain out to a certain level, then evaporate the rest of the way. at first i thought it a dam problem, but realized it was hydraulic head (depth of water) exerted on the bedrock substrate. water was driven through fractures and daylighting just downstream of dam. my only affordable fix was to import clay, and combine with native clay i had on property to seal particularly the deepest parts of pond (where hyd. head was greatest). now 8-mos. post renovation, the pond is holding more water than it has in over 10 years, albeit evaporating alot more than i want, but creek is dry downstream of pond......the type of bedrock we have here weathers in such a way that clays dominate the fracture zones, however, in the creek bed, the bedrock was much less weathered, and fractures void of clays......which is where it seeped.......not along the sides in the weathered bedrock, but in the creek channel in the fresh bedrock.

i dont know if any of this helps, but perhaps sharing a similar "bedrock" pond story may spur some ideas.